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FredB
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The following reaction I read in the Jakarta Post, which is saying it all. If there are still people doubting about the nature of Indonesia, please read this reaction of somebody else and find more in that newspaper:

The factors keeping terrorism alive in Indonesia are:

1. Poor education.
2. Manipulative Indonesian translation if the Arabic Koran and Hadiths to suit the opinions of so-called Islamic scholars. The Indonesian language leads to an easy process to feed the Indonesian people only what you think they need to hear.
3. Endemic corruption at all levels of government and society.
4. Inability of the Indonesia government and society to accept responsibility for their own actions. Stop blaming others.
5. The two-faced nature of Indonesians - pretending is a national pastime. Hypocrisy is seen as a virtue.
6. Not understanding what Islam and the Koran are really all about.
7. Blaming capitalism and imperialism, yet turning the other cheek and indulging in the same.
8. Excessive population growth where quantity is more important than quality.
9. An unjustified sense of self-importance.
10. A fundamental lack of caring about the world, the environment and the society in which we live. Indonesians care about nothing but their loss of face and the size of their wallets. Lying and cheating is a national pastime.

So let's stop this rubbish about the Western world. Ninety percent of Indonesian Muslims would jump at the chance to live in the US if offered a job, opportunity and equality under law. What hope have you in Indonesia when it is a money-oriented society? No wonder it is so easy to breed hatred and manipulate people in Indonesia.

John Ralph
Jakarta

These are facts as seen by many, not some feelings in the underbelly. It also has nothing to do with being negative about Indonesia. These are facts that are there and need to be accepted like that if you want to be in RI, either for holidays of for residency.
These facts are good ground for terrorism, understandably in the light of the above.

RI should be regarded as a country in great need of some decent help!


Be careful what you wish for; you might get it!

Yogya-Bali
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On 22-09-2009 08:42 FredB wrote: 4. Inability of the Indonesia government and society to accept responsibility for their own actions. Stop blaming others.
5. The two-faced nature of Indonesians - pretending is a national pastime. Hypocrisy is seen as a virtue.
.......
9. An unjustified sense of self-importance.
10. ...... Indonesians care about nothing but their loss of face and the size of their wallets.

It is a state- and society hobbby.



KimDonesia
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Sigh, a troll.

"A breeding ground for terrorism". Oh, really?

It's funny that you say that. 237 million people live in Indonesia, most of them are Muslims yet you only hear of the odd terrorist every few months.

If Indonesia was "a breeding ground for terrorism", wouldn't we be hearing of many more terrorist attacks, seeing that there are 237 million people in Indonesia?

Furthermore, you listed off a number of traits of Indonesians... I find it amazing that you know every single individual in Indonesia - how else would you know that all Indonesians were like this?

Please.

I think you're being a bit of an ignorant, generalizing idiot. I pity you.



FredB
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I guess you're too young to understand, sweety.
Did you pick up that foul language in Australia? Common stuff in Oz.
Do you consider yourself an average Indonesian? Or just a lucky one to get out of there?
Dream on, honey. Or better: keep flip-flop-flapping! (For the rest: this is an Australian bar-entertainment were drunk women hit each other hardest on the fat belly with a flip-flop. The one who can keep it up longest wins. Bloody funny!).


Be careful what you wish for; you might get it!

Jeroen
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I think you're being a bit of an ignorant, generalizing idiot . I pity you.
Yeah, that will do it for sure.. NOT...



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On 22-09-2009 21:36 FredB wrote:
I guess you're too young Emoticon: Confused to understand, sweety.
.


Hua hua hua hua , lucu sekali (LOL)


bisa dicek of makemyday .

rwezenaar
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my god, people. can we please grow up ?

KimDonesia, I agree with you that FredB did generalise a lot in his article. However, it was _not_ necessary to call him names, especially after your compelling arguments.

Flaming ultimately will only lead to more flaming (and hatred amoungst eachother.) Why spoil a good conversation this way ?

FredB, if you're really so mature, you wouldn't have reacted in any way on KimDonesia's remarks.

Now, can you please go on with the discussion in a civilised manner ? Dying to hear really good arguments from both sides here !

Rick



guna2
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On 23-09-2009 18:11 rwezenaar wrote: KimDonesia, I agree with you that FredB did generalise a lot in his article.

FredB didn't generalise, Rick. He quoted a `John Ralph.' Please start reading, Rick and, er, KimWhatever.



FredB
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On 23-09-2009 18:11 rwezenaar wrote:
Hallelujah, Jesus is back on earth!! Praise the Lord. Emoticon: Worship


Be careful what you wish for; you might get it!

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On 23-09-2009 18:29 guna2 wrote:

[quote removed]

FredB didn't generalise, Rick. He quoted a `John Ralph.' Please start reading, Rick and, er, KimWhatever.


And who is John Ralph ?

I live in Indonesia and deal at the highest level of the Indonesian Government and business.
In my entire life I have never come across people so two faced that will pray in front of me before a meeting and then ask for a bribe. I am a Muslim and married local lady.


Acc Fred B :
These are facts as seen by many, not some feelings in the underbelly. It also has nothing to do with being negative about Indonesia. These are facts that are there and need to be accepted like that if you want to be in RI, either for holidays of for residency.

As seen by many ??


bisa dicek of makemyday .

JohanN
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In fact, I agree with Kim the Indonesian kangaroo girl, although not with here fierce reaction;
the factors given by John Ralph are right but can be found in every psychological/social book about third world or emerging countries. Just replace the word 'Indonesia' by any other country.



Begin de details te vergeten

Yogya-Bali
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On 23-09-2009 22:59 JohanN wrote: Just replace the word 'Indonesia' by any other country.

In certain cases, yes it is, in other ones not, pure RI:

4. Inability of the Indonesia government and society to accept responsibility for their own actions.
5. The two-faced nature of Indonesians - pretending is a national pastime.
9. An unjustified sense of self-importance.
10. A fundamental lack of caring about the world, the environment and the society in which we live. Indonesians care about nothing but their loss of face and the size of their wallets.

But all explainable with some knowledge about the Indonesian (Javanese) culture where responsibility is left to the Big Bapak (not an individual virtue), truth is far less important than (the cause of) loosing face (speaking the truth is not a virtue, loosing face is much worse) and xenophobia (islanders and Malay culture).



FredB
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As another one gave a reaction, see below, I think it is downright scary to see the developments of the last 10 years. If this is all true, it could very well be, and it continues without any resistance we all might be sitting in a dirty skirt with slippers in the coming 20 years, being controlled in mind and behaviour by religious lunatics, and Indonesia would even lose her own identity and culture.
Wouldn't it be time for the government to step in?

Quote:
The Islamist terrorists get financial and ideological support from the Wahabi radicals in the Middle East. If Indonesia and Malaysia want to stop the Wahabisation, then these countries have to stop sending students from the madrassa and pesantren there for further studies, even if they are granted scholarships.

Why? The returning graduates are fully brainwashed Wahabi followers (Wahabism is violence-loving, un-Islamic sect) who have the duty to radicalize Southeast Asia and turn it into a factory of jihadists and extreme intolerance. The seed began 10 years ago and the results are evident: Sharia laws spawning across the archipelago, forced jilbab-ization, stoning to be accepted in Aceh, more than 50 million Muslims forgetting their Indonesian traditions and switching to Wahabi jilbab and niqab, and a growing infiltration in all aspects of life by Wahabi radicals.

Will they stop sending students? I doubt this will happen. One further solution would be the complete ban of the Wahabi sect and their associated parties by the MUI through a fatwa.

The third step would be stopping diplomatic ties with Wahabi nations and forbidding the building of mega mosques financed by these countries to put their graduates there. I doubt this will happen too. Saudi Arabia will always be able to finance Wahabi groups. Thus, is there a light at the end of the tunnel? Unfortunately, no.

Edo E.
Jakarta

Unquote


Be careful what you wish for; you might get it!

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On 24-09-2009 06:24 FredB wrote:
Quote: Mister Edo
Why? The returning graduates are fully brainwashed Wahabi followers (Wahabism is violence-loving, un-Islamic sect) who have the duty to radicalize
Edo E. Jakarta



Influence of Wahabism began centuries ago , see Padri War 1821-1837 .

And the sending of Moslims volunteers to Afghanistan and Bosnia .
They came back to Indonesia after Afghanistan and Bosnia.


bisa dicek of makemyday .

AnisJ
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  • Firstly .

  • Nahdlatul Ulama. NU is the largest Muslim group in Indonesia, 40 millions followers.

  • While Muhammadiyah, the second largest Islamic organization has followers of about 35 millions. Muhammadiyah is considered to hold a more fundamentalist view of Islam.
    Source: About Christianity & Islam.

    Secondly.

    2.3. Life dynamic according to Islam.

    There are several spheres of life according to Islam.

    2.3.1. Ukhuwah Islamiyah (Relationship among Muslims)

    Islam in Indonesia has a tradition of Ukhuwah Islamiyah or Islamic Solidarity. According to this tradition, Muslims have the obligation to look after and protect one another. This Islamic brotherhood is meant to maintain unity and equality in the community.

    However, this concept of Islamic solidarity is often used to soften the differences between moderate and fundamentalist Muslims.

    If a moderate becomes critical against the fundamentalist, their attitude could be portrayed as a communal betrayal.

    Yet sometimes moderates and fundamentalists disagree about the nature of Sharia itself.

    The fundamentalists emphasize one’s outward physical appearance (furu’iyah).
    For example, they say that females must wear head covering (JILBAB) in order to prevent lust. In addition, God fearing men must grow a beard and wear Islamic dress in order to prevent jealousy and suppress bad intentions. Muslims must also faithfully pray five times a day and greet each other.

    Moderate Muslims , however, consider all these outward manifestations as insubstantial.
    For the moderates, such as the NU,[7] Islam is about a value system that has to be lived and guarded. It is not about one’s outward physical appearance; rather, it is about how Islam responds to injustice, poverty, and unemployment.

    However, this kind of debate is a very sensitive issue within Islam. But it is not surprising that the NU and other moderates would feel threatened were the fundamentalists to take power and legislate conformity to the outward physical symbols of Islam.

    2.3.2. Ukhuwah Watoniah (Relationship between Muslims and non-Muslims)

    Theologically, there are two views on the relationship between Muslims and Non-Muslims :

    1) The moderate view and is based on Al Kaafiruun: 6 – “for you, it is your religion, and for me, it is my religion.” Based on that verse, Muslims can respect people who have different belief systems.

    Therefore, moderates like the NU could easily live with people of different religions. They believe in contextualization, not furu’iyah where females have to wear head covers and males have to grow beards, etc.

    2) The fundamentalist view is based on the understanding that “God doesn’t bear any children.” Therefore, there is only one true religion, and proponents of other religions are infidels who must be brought to repentance even through war if necessary.
    For the fundamentalist, furu’iyah becomes very important as an outward physical indicator of the devout.

    The imposition of furu’iyah by fundamentalists has been increasing steadily thanks to the new regional autonomy laws introduced a few years ago. Regional governments have now introduced all kinds of laws based on Islamic law ostensibly for the sake of security but without consideration for the rights of citizens of other religions.

    2.3.3. Ukhuwah Basariah (relationship between Muslims and other nations)

    According to Islam, relationships between nations have to be based on respect.
    However, for the fundamentalist, the spirit to proselytize Islam and its teaching has caused them to apply other Ukhuwah (Ukhuwah Islamiyah and Ukhuwah Watoniah) accordingly even across their own state lines.

    Source: About Christianity & Islam

  • Thirdly .

    Dakwah is an obligation for Muslims to help others to understand Islam better, for Muslims to become better Muslims, and to give non-Muslims the opportunity to become
    Muslims.

  • Source/Bron: http://forum.indahnesia.com/to(...)ligion_marriages.php

  • Als je over 'iets' een mening wil hebben moet je 'achtergrond' info hebben .....
    Emoticon: Yes! ... overigens ik ben Christen .....


  • 'Ahu kura ahia, mansia nia'

    JohanN
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    Yes, the influence of the arabic countries is growing but this is mainly based on petrodollars (a nice word McKinsey uses all the time in their numerous articles about economic items).
    But on the other hand, at a certain point oil is 'habis' or the use of it decreases. Then, the role of the arabic countries are finished. Just take a look a Dubai: the whole sociaty is based on oil income, foreign (western) knowledge and in property prices. The last 2 factors are already decreasing.
    With the decrease of oil income and oil power, the influence of arabic countries will decrease in all kinds of way, including the export of terrorism.


    Begin de details te vergeten

    sglange
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    I don't agree with what was said by FredB that Indonesia is a breeding grounds for terrorism.Majority of the people,the dusun folks that I know does not agree with the radicals and what is carried out in Indonesia.Hence to say,comments by FredB is not correct.



    zannehow
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    Fred B,

    I find you are indulging in a bit of hypocrisy, criticising Kimdonesia for calling you an idiot (does the word "idiot" really constitute foul language) while denigrating Australian women with the example you gave. I have lived in Australia all my life and have never ever witnessed the event you talked about. There is a very nasty bigoted and immature tone to your post and I am disgusted that the moderator has not pulled you up on this.

    As to Indonesia, I have spent much time there since 1993 and had the good fortune and opportunity to mix with many different stratas of society from rural peasants to the ruling elite.

    Some of what John Ralph may be true - particularly with regard to corruption - but I think that to claim Indonesians as a whole are uncaring and only with loss of face and money is quite ignorant. I have had the good fortune to meet many Indonesians (as I do speak the language) who care deeply about their society and where it is heading. Many have put their lives on the line over the years and continue to work hard for the betterment on Indonesia.

    The fact is that Indonesia is a vast sprawling nation. People like anywhere are not perfect and there is a threat that the vulnerable and poor fall prey to terrorist sentiment. But considering the vast population, these are still the minority. Yes, we should be worried and wary about this minority but we should also recognise that it is just that.

    As to John Ralph's assessment of how Indonesia interprets the Koran and Islam, well, I ask is he an Islamic Scholar? Can he provide an expert view? Indonesia has many many intelligent and forward thinking scholars who may help redefine this Religion for modern times.



    kiwimave
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    Well I agree with the author that Indonesia is quite vulnerable to Islam and islamofascism, more than e.g. the Netherlands. I think this is mainly a problem of education, low educated people are easy to get pushed to totalitarian ideas like we have seen in the past. I just wish that education will be much much better in Indonesia, then I'm quite sure you will see disappearance of Islam(ofascism) there. To be realistic, I dont think this will happen in our generation yet Emoticon:


    Gracias. Sama sama

    casanova
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    What goes around come around...its there bad luck ! KARMA




    searching
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    I believe that some points are correct in the article quoted by FredB, mixed with the description by Anis.
    1. Education and the inability to use Arabic Language.
    2. Ukhuwah Islamiyah (the brotherhood of muslims).

    I agree that many Indonesian people in the village are clean hearted - but easily they can be instigated into riots or terrorism, because of the "brotherhood" (the muslims are surpressed, or there are people trying to make the muslims murtad, etc). You can see the examples around.

    About being hypocrite, I am sure it doesn't belong to Indonesians only, but also in Asia or even now belongs to the western countries (called "politically correct" Emoticon: Wink . People will not tell you what they really think in fear of "intimidation", "disadvantage" or "being sued". Isn't it a hypocrisy?

    Education is the best way to get rid of the ignorance. It gives people the ability to use their rationale. But then again, the fundamentalists always try to succumb the progress and innovation with many labels (haram, sin, etc), so it depends on the people. If the willingness to progress is strong enough people will be able to change the government and start a brand new and more open society, like what is happening now in Iran.



    Find out the real face of Islam, read www. faithfreedom.org

    Dutchess
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    I actually do agree with point 1 until 10 and for sure the government or leaders have to be blamed for that. We can only be wondering why until now it is pretty calm sofar with indeed a population of 237 million.

    I think more focus should be set on the students, because amongst them certainly there are certainly individuals with evil and sick plans not amongst the majority of those 273 milion poor people, who only like to live a decent life, but brainwashing their mindsets could be a trigger if the poverty goes on and on...

    An example that nigerian student.

    And as for the Kimgirl (or should I say chick?) I presume, maybe she is watching too much MTV or american tv-series, ironically so much critized and cursed by the muslim world.
    Emoticon: Clown


    wablief?


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