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Indonesia: 'Dutch anti-Islam film can disturb interfaith harmony'
Indonesia on Friday warned a Dutch lawmaker not to release an anti-Islam film which could destroy interfaith harmony, the country foreign ministry said here. Dutch lawmaker Geert Wilders, who heads the Freedom Party, will release his short film this month, which he says will depict the Koran as a 'fascist book', despite mounting protests and disagreement from the Dutch government.
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bartje64
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Hehe.. a little premature, right?? The film hasn't even showed and already there's trouble.
Let all those religious hotheads keep their quiet until they have at least SEEN the film themselves, and THEN react...
(Mind you..I'm not pro-Wilders.. but I believe in freedom of speech)

Regards, Bartje



Albert
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This is what the Jakarta post writes about it.

Freedom of expression running wild, wilder, Wilders?

Can we judge the unknowable? Let us refer the question to the movie Fitna by the Dutch parliamentarian Geert Wilders.
No one has seen Wilders' filmic pamphlet, of which it is said is strongly critical of Islam. No one can have seen it. Fitna the movie does not "yet" exist.
This film has prematurely gained a life of its own; it has already enraged people and inflamed a worldwide debate. Dutch flags are burning alongside Danish ones (Danish newspapers have republished a cartoon of the Prophet Muhammad). The Taliban declared war on the Dutch (the Dutch army, though, is already in Afghanistan).

Responsible people will acknowledge that their freedom is relative, in other words, freedom is limited by the freedom of others. For example, it is physically impossible to occupy the same ground where someone else is standing without violating her or his personal integrity.

The world is a crowded place; we have no choice but to value freedom as a common project. Words are not physical in the same way as a human body is. However, to say that words are merely words renders language meaningless. If words are just words, we are no better than other animals who can only express subjective emotions. We humans can use linguistic symbols to express propositions and ideas. Ideas do matter. Ideas do have an effect on actions. Ideas can hurt.

Geert Wilders (1963) was declared the politician of 2007, not because of his ideas, but because he has the talent to dominate public debate through wide media exposure. Wilders called the Prophet Muhammad a "barbarian" (this word is etymologically derived from the Greek for alien or stranger). Moreover, he called the Koran a fascist book that incites violence (Adolf Hitler's Mein Kampf is the only book that cannot be bought in Dutch bookstores).

The British philosopher John Gray writes in Black Mass, his book on apocalyptic utopias, that in Europe "by fastening on immigration the far right has been able to tap into the discontent of the casualties of globalization in rich countries".

Wilders used the apocalyptic metaphor of the tsunami when discussing immigration from Islamic countries. It is on this subject that he disagrees with the mainstream VVD -- Freedom Party.

He stepped out of the VVD because he does not want Turkey as a member of the European Union (he considers Turkey an Islamic, not a secular country). He founded the PVV -- the Party for Freedom -- which holds nine out of 150 seats in the parliament.

The movie Fitna, so it is widely taken for granted, will make connections between acts of terrorism committed by Muslims and verses from the Koran. Outsiders should be careful interpreting other people's holy texts. Can the holy texts of the Jews, for example, be used to explain Israeli violence against Palestinians?

While Wilders is a politician, he is not voicing the opinion of the Dutch government, of which his party is no member. Do the Dutch authorities have any legal means to block Fitna from being released? How can something be banned that does not yet exist? Dutch law rightly gives very little space for censorship (there is a dormant law on blasphemy though).

While Wilders is the author of Fitna, the question remains, however, to what extent he can be held liable for unforeseen and unwanted consequences. Possible consequences are riots and boycotts. Causality stops somewhere, while Wilders' film can become a motive for others to act, he cannot be responsible for other people's actions.

Already for some years, bodyguards have protected Wilders wherever he goes and he has to live in safe houses (including a former prison). To what extent will he have to answer for accusations of racism?

These questions, again, can only be answered after the movie has been seen. Dutch television channels have already said they will not air the film (the Netherlands has public and commercial stations, but no state television). Wilders now has the option to show his movie at a press conference or on a website (see the American-based www.fitnathemovie.com).

A harmonious society is a utopia. Democracy is the political system in which we have to use peaceful means to deal with disagreements. Democracy is the least thing we should agree upon. Wilders does not want to play this game by its rules. He wants to use freedom of expression without the willingness to engage in dialogue. A politician should bridge gaps and not sharpen contrasts.

A dialogue between Islam and the West is nonsense. Only real existing people can talk and listen. Muslims are already a part of the West. The West is already a part of Islam. An interreligious debate has the danger of miniaturizing people to only their religion while neglecting their multi-layered identities.

Terrorist acts in Bali, New York, Madrid, Baghdad and London are committed in the name of Islam, but that cannot mean that all Muslims are guilty by association. Apologies cannot be demanded from a billion or so Muslims (besides, while Sept. 11 was a traumatic event, not all Westerners are victims). Muslims should also not be singled out to be critical of, for example, al-Qaeda.

European politicians often ask their Muslim constituents to become moderate; but an orthodox Muslim can very well be a supporter of secular democracy. To reduce a citizen to her or his religion has a dehumanizing effect.

The Dutch-British Ian Buruma and the Israeli Avishai Margalit wrote the book Occidentalism, The West in the Eyes of its Enemies. They wrote this book to come to understand Sept. 11. In the conclusion they write: "The story we have told in this book is a tale of cross-contamination, the spread of bad ideas. This could happen to us now, if we fall for the temptation to fight fire with fire, Islamism with our own forms of intolerance."

Unlimited freedom, Dostoyevsky wrote in his novel The Devils, leads to unlimited despotism. To use the basic right of freedom of expression with responsibility, on the other hand, cannot mean that we can express only that on which we all agree. Civil society would then be rather empty of any expression.

Freedom of expression is the right that enables people to express thoughts, values and ideas. Most importantly, though, we must first have a reason to express ourselves in the public space. It is imperative to find ways on how to agree on how to disagree.

The writer, from the Netherlands, teaches at Parahyangan University. His weblog is at fatumbrutum.blogspot.com.


Wil je ook meester van je eigen leven zijn? http://www.goudenera.nl

Nemesis
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On 14-03-2008 13:34 Albert wrote:
.
Responsible people will acknowledge that their freedom is relative, in other words, freedom is limited by the freedom of others. For example, it is physically impossible to occupy the same ground where someone else is standing without violating her or his personal integrity.


YES, BUT THIS CUTS FROM TWO SIDES. RESPECT HAS TO COME FROM BOTH SIDES.

Wilders has to show respect for the Koran and Muslims while Muslims, especially the ones living in the Netherlands, have to show respect towards Dutch culture and habbits.

E.G. If a non-muslim woman wants to visit Iran she will have to wear a scarf. If she does not want this they'll force her. If a non-muslim woman wants to visit Aceh, she also will have to obay to the local habbits.

We al consider this normal; "you do not take a topless sunbath in an Islamic country"

In Holland this would mean that Foreighn woman will have to adapt to what is accepted as normal in Holland.

Wearing a scarf could be acceptable for woman 55+, but surely not for younger women. I do not have to discuss burka's or man looking like Osama bin laden etc. Obviously these are not acceptable within Dutch culture and do not belong in Dutch streets.

I hope I've made it clear that the problem in Holland is that there's a total lack of respect from A PART of the muslims that live in the Netherlands. The fact that they are clearly visible make thinks worse.

So my advice to these people is: either accept being Dutch and adapt to Dutch culture and habbits or please to a country (like Iran) that suits your needs much better.




Amore, more, ore, re, probantur amicitiae. Si hoc legere scis nimium eruditiones habes.

Nemesis
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Just one question to the fundamentalistic muslims that continue to live in the Netherlands.

Why don't you leave this country?

I know most of you already have a pasport of another country that would be better from a religious point of view.

Further, If you really believe your spirit and religious life are the most important then why stay in the country of the infidels Holland?

Yes I know why you stay here. Money is more important than Allah.

Your Religion, Don't Make Me Laugh!




Amore, more, ore, re, probantur amicitiae. Si hoc legere scis nimium eruditiones habes.

bartje64
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Yes, why not? So the fundamentalists will not be bothered anymore by the infidel Dutchies and those infidel Dutchies can continue living their life without being bothered. Win-win situation I'd say Emoticon: Very funny


On 15-03-2008 20:04 Nemesis wrote:
Just one question to the fundamentalistic muslims that continue to live in the Netherlands.

Why dont you leave this country?

I know most of you already have a pasport of another country that would be better from a religious point of view.

Further, If you really believe your spirit and religious life are the most important then why stay in the country of the infidels Holland?

Yes I know why you stay here. Money is more important than Allah.

Your Religion, Dont Make Me Laugh!





graecus
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Let's all start buying Dutch things- I started on Danish tinned meat a year or two back and enjoyed it, yummy pork, excellent for sandwiches. Now it's time for solidarity with Holland, though its government's waffly weaseling hasn't done a lot for its reputation.
Wilders may have his downside, but he is on the side of those who rightly say that aliens should leave undesirable baggage at the border, if they want to settle. UK now subsidises the primitives who practice polygamy, gross appeasement of mediaeval savages, so all Western nations need to stiffen their backbones. Heineken, anyone?



mantr01
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Obviously an over reaction - the movie shows very little opinion from Wilders - it is mostly headlines, films and quotes from the Qur'an



Nemesis
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How clear are moderate Muslims in rejecting Muslim violence?

See graph below:


The growing of grass is easier to hear.......


Amore, more, ore, re, probantur amicitiae. Si hoc legere scis nimium eruditiones habes.

Nemesis
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According to Islamic tradition: an eye for an eye, our response from Holland should obviously be:

INDONESIA GO TO HELL !!!

Of course, this is not our answer! As a matter of fact I’ve never seen statements like this from any European extremist. A phrase like this totally lacks nuance and does nothing more than creating hate. Well, basically it does everything these people accuse Wilders of doing, but what they are doing themselves is 1000 times worse.

I wonder how many people in Jakarta already went to court to accuse these people from creating hate and threaten innocent foreigners. Maybe in Indonesia it’s considered acceptable to threaten innocent foreigners. Emoticon: Sadley

Normally these accusations should result in the Dutch government asking the Indonesian Ambassador to give an explanation and tell him these threats are not acceptable.

Unfortunately our government has no gut and is scared for the extremist’s from Jakarta; therefore they show their weakness and say nothing. They accept that our country has to go to hell. We used to be a country of principals, now Holland has become a country that accepts violence as the base of what is right and true. Emoticon: Cry


Amore, more, ore, re, probantur amicitiae. Si hoc legere scis nimium eruditiones habes.

mantr01
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Yes, it is strange, Abu Bakar Ba'ashyr can exhort people to 'beat up' visitors to Indonesia and no Muslim complains - but make a movie ...........



sidia
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On 04-04-2008 13:02 mantr01 wrote:
Yes, it is strange, Abu Bakar Baashyr can exhort people to beat up visitors to Indonesia and no Muslim complains - but make a movie ...........

No Muslim ???

See article from J.I.L Indonesia abt salafism .

Salafi Radikal, Pesantren, dan Terorisme
Tanggal dimuat: 1/9/2003


Di sinilah kelihatan karakter asli kelompok ini yang memandang turast (doktrin dan tradisi) yang berupa teks-teks kitab secara literalistik, tekstual, sakral, eternal, magis, dan final. Pandangan inilah yang menyebabkan perilaku mereka yang ekstrem, radikal, fanatis, tidak kenal kompromi, eksklusif, dan fundamentalis.



Saat ini, secara faktual kita melihat keanekaragam perzinaan, eksploitasi aurat (para turis), iklan transparan (semua iklan hampir menonjolkan organ wanita yang sensitif), judi, minum-minuman keras, dan lain-lain mengelilingi kehidupan ini secara bebas. Dan kebetulan, yang menyediakan hal-hal semacam ini secara full dan terbuka umum adalah restoran, night club, dan tempat-tempat hiburan lainnya yang notabene banyak dikunjungi oleh warga negara asing.
Maka tak ayal lagi, tempat-tempat semacam itu selalu rentan aksi kelompok ini, baik berupa ancaman, bom, tembak, sweeping, dsb. yang semuanya masuk dalam katagori terorisme.



Bisa dicek mas . http://omsid.multiply.com/

mantr01
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Sidia
With respect, here is a section (translated) from the same article -
---------------------------
This, for example, can be seen from the figure of Abu Baker Ba’asyir who, for his extreme understanding on Islam, is often affiliated to the Al-Qaida movement, as he also called as the mastermind of terrorist actions in Indonesia.10 He hates America as well as Australia, yes; he propagates the implementation of the syari’a or Islamic states, yes, but this is not enough to call him terrorist. In this case, the confusion rise among the intelligent agency in investigating Ba’asyir’s case because, even until today, there has been no clear evidence related to his affiliation to terrorist movements in Indonesia. He even has been released from the accusation.
--------------------------------
This article was written in 2003 - I do believe that Ba'asyir has been proven to be a leader of J.I. - he visits the Bali bombers in prison and praises them and now he is encouraging attacks on 'kaffirs'





bartje64
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On 01-04-2008 18:20 Nemesis wrote:

[According to Islamic tradition: an eye for an eye, our response from Holland should obviously be:

INDONESIA GO TO HELL !!!

Of course, this is not our answer! As a matter of fact I’ve never seen statements like this from any European extremist. A phrase like this totally lacks nuance and does nothing more than creating hate. Well, basically it does everything these people accuse Wilders of doing, but what they are doing themselves is 1000 times worse.

I wonder how many people in Jakarta already went to court to accuse these people from creating hate and threaten innocent foreigners. Maybe in Indonesia it’s considered acceptable to threaten innocent foreigners. Emoticon: Sadley

Normally these accusations should result in the Dutch government asking the Indonesian Ambassador to give an explanation and tell him these threats are not acceptable.

Unfortunately our government has no gut and is scared for the extremist’s from Jakarta; therefore they show their weakness and say nothing. They accept that our country has to go to hell. We used to be a country of principals, now Holland has become a country that accepts violence as the base of what is right and true. Emoticon: Cry


When seeing these reactions from Indonesians I considered cancelling my trip in June. But.. since my wife will already be with her mom in Jakarta I am bound to go.. Cannot do the "boycot" by myself. I just hope that when I come to Indonesia again things have already settled down and the "holland bashing" is over...
I don't know what my reaction will be if I'm confronted with one of these nitwits who only seem to make trouble and love to stirr up the hornet nest which is Islam. Hope I will be able to keep my temper...

Bartje



sidia
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On 01-04-2008 18:20 Nemesis wrote:

[According to Islamic tradition: an eye for an eye, our response from Holland should obviously be:
INDONESIA GO TO HELL !!!
----------------------------------------------------------

Nemesis , are you a bit confused by using a bible verse ?





Bisa dicek mas . http://omsid.multiply.com/

mantr01
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Sidia
No (he) is not confused - in fact it appears that the same quote comes from the qu'uran -

5:45 or 5:49 .... the eye for the eye, the nose for the nose, the ear for the ear, the tooth for the tooth, and an equivalent injury for any injury

Like Nemesis I am taking my family to Indonesia soon (this month) - to celebrate my mother-in-laws birthday - how do you explain (not that I will) Ba'ashir's wish?? to them!!!??





sidia
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I think that Nemesing is mentioning

Exodus 21:24:
Eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, 21:25 Burning for burning, wound for wound, stripe for stripe.

Surah 5:45:
And We prescribed for them therein: The life for the life, and the eye for the eye, and the nose for the nose, and the ear for the ear, and the tooth for the tooth, and for wounds retaliation.

But whoso forgoeth it (in the way of charity) it shall be expiation for him. Whoso judgeth not by that which Allah hath revealed: such are wrong-doers

See also Surah 2-199
Fight in the way of God against those who fight you , BUT donot go beyond the limits.
God does not love those who go beyond the limits.



Bisa dicek mas . http://omsid.multiply.com/


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