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AnisJ
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On 17-04-2007 22:42 ningrum wrote:
wie is don corleone?


Adûh Ningrun (yth.) you're funny ..... Ningrun dia lucu sekali .... Emoticon: Clown Emoticon: Clown Emoticon: Bye bye Emoticon: Bye bye


'Ahu kura ahia, mansia nia'

derrick
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On 18-04-2007 08:22 sidia wrote:

Its true , Indonesia have immense preblems , since the beginning (1945) till at least 1965-1966 .
Later the Timor Timur affaire .
Its a big country , with big problems , not enougf funds , skilled people , to much ethnicsgroups etc.
And the role of the OrBa , Krismon etc.

Sidia,

It's true that in the early years lots of big problems had to be dealt with like illiteracy, poverty etc. It's a fact that the Dutch didn't leave the Indonesians with much tools to run the country in a proper manner. Also the way President Soekarno dealt with a lot of issues had a very adverse effect, especially his Guided Democracy policy turned out to be devastating. Fortunately President Suharto managed to get Indonesia back on the track after 1965/66.

Is there a lack of funds? Well, Indonesia is still rich in naturals resources, so that shouldn't be a problem.
You mention a shortage of skilled people. What about the thousands of graduates from the Indonesian universities?

Myanmar , Suriname , Philipine , Malaysia have not so much problems as Indonesia.
Their countrysize , social/political situation , ethnicsgroups etc.
Philippine have also a better education, and hunderd of years earliers than the indonesian.

Maybe the country should have become a federation like the USA. A lot of big countries are federations just to make the country more manageable. I know this a very sensitive issue in Indonesia because the idea was launched by Van Mook in 1946 and got a hostile reception by the Republican Government. Maybe a federation would have prevented a lot of ethnic, religious and separation problems which haunt Indonesia since the Independance.
I think a lot of issues became more visible since the demise of the Suharto regime. He held the country on a tight leash contrary to his successors. It seems that the present Government has lost control, and the country is drifting. Economy is deteriorating, corruption is rampant, poverty is increasing. Due to bad law (+constitution) enforcement also lawlessness and violation of civil rights are increasing.
Indonesia has all the ingredients to become a success (people, natural resources) but the lack of good governance and strict enforcement of laws prevent this.



derrick
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On 18-04-2007 09:52 andre wrote:
Jeroens question was Why do people get back to colonial times (in arguments)? So far, most replies disapprove of looking back. But this doesnt answer the question.... I guess people that get back to colonial times, have a feeling that the Netherlands owes Indonesia something. In the Vics words:...

Andre,
One of the reasons why people get back to Dutch colonial times (in arguments) is, that it is the only thing to go back to. The Portugese and the English presence was too short, I presume. And ofcourse the fact that Dutch colonial rule ended with a war in 1945-1949 has contributed too. But the biggest reason is that the Dutch hardly involved the native people in governing their own country. The Dutch occupied all key functions. So when the Dutch finally left, the Indonesian Government was left virtually emptyhanded and thus faced an immense challenge.

So then, the question is: What should we give back? How much? Should we add up the total amount of tea and tin, subtract the railroad and postal service, so we can pay the resulting amount over a period of 350 years? Would that make people forget?

The only thing the Dutch Government can do is share their knowledge and skills with the Indonesians. Maybe do more with student-exchange programs. Make it easier for Indonesians to study here, maybe with dedicated scholarships.
Cooperate with the indonesians in areas such as logistics, quality management, civil engineering and agriculture to name a few.

People shouldn't forget. History is to learn from and not to be forgotten. And that doesn't only go for Dutch colonial history but also for the post-1950 period.




AnisJ
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" ...... voordat j/u verder gaat, in INDOnesia heeft alles met elkaar te maken, véél dingen hebben een dubbele dan/wel méérdere betekenis(-sen) ...... die persoon heeft méér in petto dan de geschiedenis van INDOSnesos ........ anda harus tau !!!


'Ahu kura ahia, mansia nia'

derrick
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On 18-04-2007 14:54 AnisJ wrote:

" ...... voordat j/u verder gaat, in INDOnesia heeft alles met elkaar te maken, véél dingen hebben een dubbele dan/wel méérdere betekenis(-sen) ...... die persoon heeft méér in petto dan de geschiedenis van INDOSnesos ........ anda harus tau !!!


Your point being.....?



AnisJ
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  • History is not meant to be the issue ..... mas ....... do not get me wrong Emoticon: Shiny Emoticon: Shiny


  • 'Ahu kura ahia, mansia nia'

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    Derrick wrote:

    And why do you bother about the economic power of the West? You should be more concerned about the failing Indonesian economy. For me it's a mystery how a country that is so rich in natural resources (gold, copper, gas, oil etc.) has such a bad economy. What is even more mindboggling is that when people, like yourself, are moaning about Dutch colonial rule are just standing by and watching how the country is being robbed of their natural resources by foreign companies.

    Dear Derrick,

    Thank you for your reply. It's a complicated discussion. In fact there's no reason to be proud on the Dutch colonial period. Van Heutz didn't deserve a monument in Amsterdam. But there are more crooks that made history. You can ad the name's of contemporary dictators to this list.

    A second reply is on economy. What will be the impact of China's booming economy on Indonesia? Don't under estimated the Asian Tiger. The world economy can change in the coming 10 tot 20 years. There is a global economy. So not only the West is the leader anymore. Of course there are embargo's. When things working out in South East Asia the Indonesian economy can grow.

    Mister Robert



    AnisJ
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  • We h'd started with this guy 'Vic' , this topic; it turns out he is an ordinary spammer ......


  • 'Ahu kura ahia, mansia nia'

    derrick
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    Mister Robert,

    You are right, colonial history in general is not something to be proud of. When we look at Dutch colonial history we see issues like slavetrade, opiumtrade, wars (e.g. Aceh) and the companies involved: de Vereenigde Oostindische Compagnie (VOC) and de West-Indische Compagnie (WIC). When we look back in history with 21st century glasses on we see that there is very little to be proud of, but in hindsight it is always easy to say what is wrong and what is bad.

    The effect of the Chinese economy will be immense and not only on the Indonesian economy. We already see the Chinese appearing in countries which have been abandoned by western companies. E.g. In some African countries we see the Chinese opening up old mines again. The Chinese are shopping around the globe to get the materials and fuel to keep the economy running.
    We see that there is a shift in economic power from western countries to emerging powers like China, India and Brazil. A nice example is the take-over of the Dutch steel company Corus by the Indian company Tata Steel, the other company involved was the Bazilian steel company CSN. Here two non-western companies fighting over a western company.
    In the near future we will hear more from these emerging forces, the western countries will face some tough competition. How big the Indonesian share of this market will be, depends very much on the Indonesian investment climate.





    sidia
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    On 25-04-2007 10:36 derrick wrote:
    How big the Indonesian share of this market will be, depends very much on the Indonesian investment climate.


    Birokrasi , demokrasi & KKN . Emoticon: Yes!


    Bisa dicek mas . http://omsid.multiply.com/

    foxdemon
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    Hi all,

    not all Indonesians resent Dutch culture.

    I met an aunty of a friend who kept asking me if I was Dutch or had Dutch relatives. She admired Dutch art and high culture and she had many European style statue busts in her garden and house.

    Another person I know in Indonesia loves the great Dutch artists. She likes to paint and her favourite style is Dutch impressionism.

    I'm actually Australian and I don't have a Dutch link in my family. Sometimes I'm tempted to pretend I do have Dutch blood so that I might get better treatment. But that would be naughty, wouldn't it?

    So, my point is that there might be a few disgruntled types who like to dredge up the past to win arguements, but there are quite ones who are more positive about Dutch culture. For this reason, I urge young Dutch people not to take slurs from grumpy people too personally.

    Regards.



    sidia
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    On 27-04-2007 06:43 foxdemon wrote:

    not all Indonesians resent Dutch culture.


    Yes , 1000% agree . Especially in personal matters or relationship

    But if you take a look in the history or the political and relationships between the Indonesian and the Dutch you can also see that there is another side of the medal.
    The dark side., with an " Apartheid"system.

    I knew hunderds Indonesian (friends , families) who have and love the Dutch Cultures , the Dutch Education.
    Even at the Old Colonial time .



    Bisa dicek mas . http://omsid.multiply.com/

    eniko
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    This writer, recalls the Portuguese colonial heritage in Indonesia from 1498-1800 .... the website deals with all Portuguese colonialised parts in the
    MODERATOR BREAK

    1 posting should be enough. many more is spam.

    Placed by oyibo @ 25-04-2012 10:20





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