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closje
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This was send by a friend in Indonesia to me.
Sadly enough the answer to his question is yes, I'm afraid

this is the article from
http://www.thejakartapost.com/(...)?fileid=20070310.F05

Concerned only with money
Opinion and Editorial - March 10, 2007

Since
1991 I have visited many places in Indonesia, from Medan to Makassar.
As I learned Bahasa Indonesia I can easily mingle with ordinary
Indonesians.

My first opinion about Indonesia was very positive. Most people greeted
me and invited me to their homes. In particular people in the
countryside are very happy when a westerner visits their village.

After staying a long time in this country and having talked with many
people at all social levels, from farmers to government officials, it
seems that most have only one topic which keeps them entertained:
money.

In my country, the Netherlands, people have many hobbies and ambitions.
Dutch children as young as four years old want to become doctors,
police officers, dentists, lawyers, musicians, dancers, etc. They are
encouraged by their parents to swim, dance, sing, draw cartoons, love
animals, respect nature and so on.

Indonesian children simply hang around all day in the vicinity of their
house without having anything to do. They aren't encouraged by their
parents to do something useful as these parents only watch television,
chat with neighbors or, even worse, sleep.

As a European I become bored of being told every day that I am rich
just because I'm from Europe. Indonesians don't care about their
achievements, but only about the amount of money they acquire. The way
they get this money doesn't matter to them.

People at all levels protest daily about corruption, but most of them
are themselves corrupt. If those protesters could acquire top positions
they wouldn't mind being corrupt in the same way they now accuse
others.
A lot of the media, especially The Jakarta Post, run stories on widespread corruption. Unfortunately, it's only talk with almost no action at all.

In my opinion, the high level of corruption in Indonesia is caused by
the fact that Indonesians have no ambition, except to acquire money.
When they have more than they need, they simply have a party, buy a
car, television, or waste it on other meaningless items.

They don't save it for their children's education and future like we do
in Europe. What's the meaning of money if you don't know what to do
with it?
How is this country going to develop if nobody cares about their achievements but only about money?
RONALD RAMAKERS
Medan, North Sumatra




belgianguy
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unfortunately, after nearly 17 years of living here in indonesia, I have to agree with all that...I observe it all the time, with my neighbours, but also with my own family here, when they have a day off, the main activity is watching tv or sleeping, nobody has a hobby, nobody reads a book...most conversations are about money, uang, duit in one form or another...any ambition they might have centers around money...there is no idealism whatsovever, also not in young people...



marcel70
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Sluit ik me helemaal bij aan!!!!

Mensen in Indonesia zien buitenlander alleen maar als ATM.
Zullen nooit een vriendschap aangaan als er niet een slaatje is uit te slaan.



Becik ketitik olo Ketoro

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On 10-04-2007 04:05 belgianguy wrote:
unfortunately, after nearly 17 years of living here in indonesia, I have to agree with all that...I observe it all the time, with my neighbours, but also with my own family here, when they have a day off, the main activity is watching tv or sleeping, nobody has a hobby, nobody reads a book...most conversations are about money, uang, duit in one form or another...any ambition they might have centers around money...there is no idealism whatsovever, also not in young people...


hi,

reading this, if that's what's all about, it's kind of sad.
What about school teachers ? They are the kind of people who could change all this.
How about the students, or do they study only for money ??

Inez




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This is NOT the Indonesia that I know or have come to love - granted, I've only been here for two years, but I have also met the true kindness of Indonesian people. I believe that this kind of almost fatalistic belief in one's own experiences - right or wrong - is only another brick in the wall standing between letting it all go down the drain OR accepting the challenge in a positive way.

Indonesia is a country of IMMENSE potential - and the kindness of the Indonesian people cannot just be written off as just a lust for easily-earned money without doing a good day's job.

I'm glad I don't have bule-friends in this country (I am myself a bule) and that my intro has been solely through Indonesians. Because bule will fill your ears with this kind of nonsense leading us no where.

Indonesia is facing MAJOR problems - but this country is slowly on the right track. Surely, the mentality in Indonesia is NOT like the Japanese, the Korean or even the Chinese, but this country is moving, none the less.

And in the right direction!

H



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and let me add... Holland - after 350 years of major f****** this country - left it with NOTHING! Except a good system for institutionalizing corruption... so that the little Dutch kids can sit at home and play with dolls and dicks while the Indonesian kids cannot, should actually make you think... for a sec... Mr. Closje..



mashil
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People in your country, Holland, are not thinking about money but only have pure ambitions? There is no difference in ambitions, but in Holland there is already a financial base, that's the difference. So step two is the dream or ideals cause the money is already there. If there is not enough money offcourse that's in your mind the whole day, is that so difficult to understand?
Its easy talking about idealogies and so on if you're from a western country.
All the people I know are also busy with making money, that's sad too, or logical?


- Let us live simply so that others may simply live -

closje
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Removed to prevent your adress from being spammed. Click this to go to the user profile.hankhavelock: this article was send to me by a friend of mine in Indonesia with the question wether this article was the main opinion about people in Indonesia.
After reading many fora and topics about this issue i have to say it is.
I didnt say that I agree with the content of this article because likewese you and some other I have other experiences and disagree with this article.



Jantje
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On 12-04-2007 12:58 hankhavelock wrote:
Surely, the mentality in Indonesia is NOT like the Japanese, the Korean or even the Chinese, but this country is moving, none the less.

And in the right direction!

H


Yes. Down the hill. And fast! Emoticon: Yes!


and let me add... Holland - after 350 years of major f****** this country - left it with NOTHING! Except a good system for institutionalizing corruption... so that the little Dutch kids can sit at home and play with dolls and dicks while the Indonesian kids cannot, should actually make you think... for a sec... Mr. Closje..


What a load of bulls Emoticon: Nooo




JohanN
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We have 23 employees in Jakarta who are not only sitting behind their laptops, but also dream of all kind of things and not only of money. Maybe I picked the 23 three good ones out of 220 million? Emoticon: Wink
I start to get a little bit sick of this BS third world stories, probably written by a disilussioned orang who is working as a kind of a volunteer thinking the indonesian people are helped by his personal good and wise efforts, for example by distributed second hand european underwear.....which is too large anyway!! But good enough for his own BS believe.



Begin de details te vergeten

sidia
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On 09-04-2007 23:53 closje wrote:


In my country, the Netherlands, people have many hobbies and ambitions.
Dutch children as young as four years old want to become doctors,
police officers, dentists, lawyers, musicians, dancers, etc. They are
encouraged by their parents to swim, dance, sing, draw cartoons, love
animals, respect nature and so on.


Meneer Ramakers , you are a verry funny. man .
Havent you heard about the problems of the Dutch Youth.?
Schoolproblems , the quality of the education , drugs (from soft to harddrugs) , alcoholproblems , too fat children , School agression , sex for hamburger , breezersex etc ?

You still belief in fairy tales , maybe you have watched "De Fabeltjeskrant" too many times. ??
Wake up Meneer Ramakers .

Kek kek kek kek L.O.L
Emoticon: Bye bye Emoticon: Bye bye from Amsterdam.


Bisa dicek mas . http://omsid.multiply.com/

zannehow
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I found that by exploring my own interests - such as the arts, particularly contemporary arts, nature and outdoor activities, food and cooking - that they naturally led me to groups of people who shared similar interests. By doing such, I have been fortunate during my years of living in and travelling to Indonesia, to have met an incredible range of educated and artistic people who are vibrant thinkers and doers.

Their conversations are not limited - They are passionate, they argue, they are funny and of course, like all people they are flawed at times. Which makes them all the more interesting.

And that group of people does not mix exclusively with the like-minded, rather they also mix with a broad societal cross section, from people living on the streets to the very wealthy; from simple farmers to villagers who have their own distinctive forms of music and culture.

Further while living in Medan in the early 1990's, I was fortunate to strike up friendships with all sorts of people - from the local prostitutes who would drop by for coffees to wealthy business women who travelled widely and would always be engaging in an interesting new hobby.

And when I travel in taxis or in buses or on trains , I always manage to strike up interesting conversations. Some are concerned with money (eg taxi drivers wanting to know more about labour conditions in Australia) , some are not.

I also evesdrop on conversations - like anywhere they range from the mundane to the interesting.

Yes there are those who are concerned with money (including the odd scammer) but this is because Indonesia is a hard place to get ahead. It is no wonder, getting money, keeping it and providing a decent future for your family is a concern.

So I suspect it is your friend's own limitations (and excessive Euro centric view of the world) rather than those of the Indonesian people, that have shaped his experience of Indonesia.

Zanna
(Australia)

PS I also speak Indonesia



closje
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Removed to prevent your adress from being spammed. Click this to go to the user profile.Zanna; just for the record, the writer isnt a friend of mine.
An Indonesian friend send me this article and was wondering if this was the main opinion in the western world about his people.



nlpeter
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In the story published by closje Ronald Rademakers is applying his personal experiences with Indonesian people to the entire population of Indonesia (220 million people). His main conlusion is that Indonesians are without ambitions, only think about money, and spend it in the wrong way. This is a horrible generalisation.

What about the young guys that manage to escape from poverty and keep their families alive by learning a few words english and after many years find a small job as a waiter in a tourist restaurant ? What about Indonesias great artists in arts, crafts and music ? What about the thousands of students that go abroad to international universities ? What about the girl working in an orphanage entirely dedicating her life (24 hours a day, 7 days a week) to take care of kids without parents ? What about the old man in a small village in Sumatra who plays the Dutch national hymn Wilhelmus for me with tears in his eyes ? Are they people without ambition, do they only care about money ? The remarks of Ronald are an insult to those (and many other) people. But they are the people that I meet, they are friendly, sensitive, sincere, and driven by ambitions. They are the people that stay around in my memory (and I could go on like this a long time....).

I think that Ronald is lacking empathy (gebrek aan inlevingsvermogen). I fully understand that in Indonesia I am seen as a (financially) rich person. I have always accepted this and I am at ease with it. I understand the reasons behind it, and if I was an Indonesian citizen I would probably also consider every European as being rich. Ronald, imagine you are an Indonesian and take a good look at yourself .....






Dutch guy singing Indonesian songs at http://nlpeter.nl.

hobo1
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Has anyone considered that people with "first world mentality" consume over 35 times as much material and stuff (steel, oil, computers, etc), and generate pollution at an even faster rate than people from developing countries like Indonesia.

The world's problems we are seeing grow now are caused by capitalism and materialism, not laziness or lack of ambition. From what I have seen living here in Indonesia, a lot more Indonesians can live on Planet Earth without causing problems than a few hundred million Westerners.

Without judging good or bad, right or wrong, are you sure you want the Indonesian personality to be "better" (in a Greco-Christian sense)? Be careful for what you wish, you might get it - but hopefully not from Indonesians.

Insightful posting by Closje. The observation is an accurate one.


Hideaway Bungalow in Kuta Lombok - check my homepage

zannehow
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Okay point taken Closje.





andre
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On 10-04-2007 04:05 belgianguy wrote:
unfortunately, after nearly 17 years of living here in indonesia, I have to agree with all that...I observe it all the time, with my neighbours, but also with my own family here, when they have a day off, the main activity is watching tv or sleeping, nobody has a hobby, nobody reads a book...most conversations are about money, uang, duit in one form or another...any ambition they might have centers around money...there is no idealism whatsovever, also not in young people...


Apparently, you also haven't been out of the house to much, since you had time to observe all of that.

If you would have gone out, you would have seen dozens of young people hiking up Gn. Gede every weekend. People playing in bands, sharing a passion for music. Childeren of age 4 - 8 getting Jiu Jitsu lessons. The fanatical play of a women volleyball team in a suburban competition still amazes me. Check out this video for an Indonesian airplane enthusiast.

All of these thing are done, not because people have to, or because it earns them money. But because they want to. The youngster climbing Gn. Gede, have the ambition to reach the top.


On 12-04-2007 07:42 marcel70 wrote:
Sluit ik me helemaal bij aan!!!!

Mensen in Indonesia zien buitenlander alleen maar als ATM.
Zullen nooit een vriendschap aangaan als er niet een slaatje is uit te slaan.


About the money.... it is part of Indonesian culture to differentiate people based on wealth. In the cantin of my former employer, the office employees paid more for their tahu and Indomie (TM), then the employees from the workshop. "harga pas" is a western concept.

I think that as a foreigner, you attract certain types of people, because your (presumed) wealth is recognizable from the color of your skin. This creates a deformed view of Indonesian society.

Sure, there are Indonesians who purely focus on money. Mostly because they have to.... Don't forget that not focusing on money is a luxury in this world.

For years, I've had tennis lessons from an Indonesian for free, my teacher expecting nothing in return, except maybe expecting my game to improve, so he would have a worthy sparring partner Emoticon: Smile

Look beyond the leeches and the money hunters... Look at the small business owners, look at what happens in komplek2 all around during independence day. Performances that have been practiced for months, competitions that are played for winning and fun at the same time. Focus on that Mr. Ramakers, instead of writing "expat bar wisdom" in a newspaper.



sidia
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On 13-04-2007 10:58 andre wrote:

...


. Focus on that Mr. Ramakers, instead of writing "expat bar wisdom" in a newspaper.


Let him tell his BS stories to expat friends at the bar, instead of in a newspaper.
Whats really odd is that such BS often comes from the Dutch, even though they are supposed to know the Indonesians better than that.

Or because they are Dutch(with colonial background), that people writing are talking such BS . Emoticon: Nooo

Kek kek kek kek (L.O.L) Emoticon: Smile
From an Indonesian living in Holland.




Bisa dicek mas . http://omsid.multiply.com/

sidia
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Sorry , some Dutch , not the Dutch. Emoticon: Blush
So sorry.


Bisa dicek mas . http://omsid.multiply.com/

andre
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For Indonesian responses to this article check out this blog

This blog by the way, is another example of an Indonesian that has a hobby. " Wow, he is almost like a European child " Emoticon: Stupid He visits restaurants and writes reviews on his blog.



sidia
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17
Mar
07Sedikit Sentilan dari Bule
post info
By JiE
Categories: Opinion and Nice To Share
21 Responses to “Sedikit Sentilan dari Bule”
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--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

1 donna
Mar 18th, 2007 at 1:56 am
salam kenal.. mau ikut berkomentar. menurutku bule yang satu ini pendapatnya terlalu “biased”, karena mungkin di indonesia dia hanya ketemunya ama orang-orang seperti itu.

aku malah bacanya sedikit tersinggung, terutama membaca, “They don’t save it for their children’s education and future like we do in Europe.”
--------------------------------------------
We must forgive him , he dont know what he talking about.

Ach Donna , itu kan blanda gebleg , terus terang saya sih engga tersinggung.
Memang mungkin dia campurnya sama orang2 yang satu level sama dia .
Depends of his social level / neighbourhood.


OmSid van Amsterdam.
aka Alexander Soeria Atmadja .




Bisa dicek mas . http://omsid.multiply.com/

belgianguy
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well it took a few days to start, but now at least there's a nice discussion going...
of course everybody's experience is personal, meaning where were you and who did you meet...were you cheated and lied to once too much?
and of course somebody living in jakarta or bali will experience indonesia totally different then say somebody living in the nick of the woods in flores or sumatra...I lived most of my indonesian life in an small town/village in east java, it is nice and easy living, in the middle of beautiful countryside...but most local people are extremely passive: hanging around, sleeping (at any time of the day) and watching tv are truly the main activities...it's just an observation I cannot get around...
anyways, I realize my experience is a limited one, but nevertheless a real one...
mind you, I admire the ability to be able to sleep anywhere and anytime, I wish I could do it! I've been known to be called lazy too, with a lack of ambition, but that was back in belgium, here nobody notices! so I blend in nicely...




marcel70
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Sid,

Belgianguy juga fustrati??
Facta sid ya itu


And Hank we should not go back al the time to the dutch time.
It time to move on
In holland we also not come back so often to the hitler time Ya toh.
This what indonesia like to hear so much so they don't have to focus on the
time to come.
Da da Emoticon: Bye bye


Becik ketitik olo Ketoro

sidia
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The opinion of belgianguy is not the same as the opininon of Toean Ronald Ramakers.

belgianguy
anyways, I realize my experience is a limited one, but nevertheless a real one...

*It is real but a limited one.

"Toean "Ramakers.
Comparing a rich country with a 3rd wordl country
People with 1200 income with 100-200 euri income.
Rich dutchkids with poor indonesian kids .
Dutch students with 600-700 euri scholarship and indonesian students with almost nada scholarship.

*It is a BS comparison .

And yr comment about bule's as a living ATM (or living /walking wallet) is also BS .
It almost seems that every bule are playing Sinyokolaas in indonesia.







Bisa dicek mas . http://omsid.multiply.com/

marcel70
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Sid,

Al bule are Living atm you know that.

And they are force to give money because indonesia people come so many time with BS story to them.
You can go arround thid comparsion about salary .
The point is every where in Kampung orang Lazy!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
But this may not be said right, because its the true.
In the city its different that's true you dont hear me say that.

Lazy 20 kali sid.

Wat me iedere keer weer opvalt is dat Sid altijd vanuit nederland hier en daar opmerkingen kan maken over alles.Sid heeft indonesia pasport toh?
En Nederlanders ook hier op het forum, mogen niet teveel kritiek hebben of hun verhaal kwijt over iets. wat teveel kritiek bevat.


EN DAN NOG WAT "iN HOLLAND KAN IEDEREEN ZE HAND OP HOUDEN
HIER NIET.IEDER BULE MOET VOOR ZICH ZELF ZORGEN


Thank you
trims mas



Becik ketitik olo Ketoro


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