indahnesia.com - Discover Indonesia Online

    
You are currently in > Forum > Indonesian history > View topic

17-01-2015 18:16 · [news] Three more bodies of AirAsia victims to Surabaya hospital  (1 reaction)
17-01-2015 01:23 · [news] Fuel prices lowered, again  (2 reactions)
17-01-2015 00:14 · [news] President dismisses Sutarman as national police chief  (0 reactions)
16-01-2015 12:44 · [news] Alleged terrorists shot dead three villagers in Poso  (3 reactions)
16-01-2015 02:15 · [news] Indonesia to execute six drug convicts  (0 reactions)

alicetiner
User
spacer line
 

Hi Everybody!

My name is Ali Cetiner. I'm Turkish student studying in the United States, with a profound interest in East Asia. I'm taking a class on colonialism in East Asia this semester and we are reading Pramoedya Ananta Toer's "This Earth of Mankind"

I just started reading this book and I am amazed at how many different ethnical and social distinctions there are and labels to distinguish these differences. Unfortunately, I cannot understand what is meant or implied by these terms yet since I know almost nothing about Indonesia (Ouppss) But from where I am from we say "It is not a pity to not know, but to not learn"

So here's my questions and I will add more to this topic as I run into more terms. Thank you in advance for your kindness to spare your time to explain these terms. I am reading the Penguin publication of this work, so if you have that I can refer you to passages where these terms are used.

The book takes place between 1898-1918, so keep in mind the historical context where these terms used while explaining them.

1. Nyai
2. Patih
3. Bupati
4. Sinyo or/and Nyo
5. Madurese (I understand that this is the language they speak in Madura, but in the introduction to the book the language Madurese is described as affiliated with a social class difference. What I don't understand is that isn't Madura simply another island of Indonesia where Indonesians live, and their language is only a variation of Indonesian? If not how are they different and where are they located in the social hierarchy)
6. Who speaks Malay?
7. Native (does this mean a Native Dutch of a Native Indonesian)
8. Indo (does this just mean anybody living in Indonesia [like Madurese and Malay too] or only pure-blood Indonesians. In the book the narrator in the novel, Minke, says "Without a family name, an Indo is considered beneath contempt like a Native." Emoticon: Wink So basically please explain what is meant by Indo and Native and how do they differ in the social system.
9. What is meant to have a last name and being acknowledged by your father?



sidia
User
User icon of sidia
spacer line
 

1. Nyai was the concubines of the Dutch(or European Emoticon: Shiny from Indonesian or chinese origine.
2.Patih was the assintant of the Bupati , in the past they ruled in the name of Sultan or King.
3.Bupati= The highest ruler , appinted bij the Sultan or King.
Mostly Indonesian aristocrats.
4.Sinyo/Nyo : Nick name of the male descendants of the Dutch /European with Native womans . (or Nyai).
5.Madura is an island.
The Javanese Cultuur is older than the Madurese.
Social hierarchy in Indonesia at that time :
First class The Dutch/European
Second class : Arabs-Chinese
Third class : the Indonesian Natives .
Its an "apartheid"society , racial and religion reason .
6.Malay= Bahas Melayue was the lingua franca of the indonesin archipelago (and south east asia).
The Indonesian from malay origine(10%) are living at the coast.
The Indonesian Youth decided in 1928 to adopt the Bahasa Melayu as their National Language.Began officially at 1945.
7.Native indonesian.
8.No , the descendants of the European with native woman (see 1 & 4) .
If they dont have a family name mean that they are bastardchild .
Hard to say that , but that is the reality of that time.
9.see 8.

* European : Dutch , French , Germany, Americans , Japanese and Turkisch etc.



Bisa dicek mas . http://omsid.multiply.com/

sidia
User
User icon of sidia
spacer line
 

1. ----the dutch/european man with native women from Indonesian or chinese origine.


Bisa dicek mas . http://omsid.multiply.com/

Jeroen
Administrator
User icon of Jeroen
spacer line
 

Changed the title Emoticon: Smile



AnisJ
User
User icon of AnisJ
spacer line
 

Ali yth.(Nezizin ??? I'd some Turkish aquintances ... ),

  • For the understanding of INDOnesia, one has to keep in mind that it uniquely exist of several and different archipelagos, this is what makes this archipelagios country very particular in the world ..... it has been a cross-road for several 'world-civilisations' in Asia and Europe ..... the colonial backgrounds of Indonesia, as a countries name .....


  • 'Ahu kura ahia, mansia nia'

    AnisJ
    User
    User icon of AnisJ
    spacer line
     


    On 04-03-2007 23:00 sidia wrote:

    1. Nyai was the concubines of the Dutch(or European Emoticon: Shiny from Indonesian or chinese origine.
    ..............................

  • With all repects, for your explanation 'Sid', I thought that this is a colonial explanation ..... is not the 'real meaning' : a female dancer of the court, the Kraton .....



    7.Native indonesian.


  • " .... is not there also a layer in between of people loyal to Dutch colonial gouvernment like:
  • Moluccans,
  • Menadonese of the Northern part of Sulawesi island.
  • Other native people ....... than these two.


    8.No , the descendants of the European with native woman (see 1 & 4) .
    If they dont have a family name mean that they are bastardchild .
    Hard to say that , but that is the reality of that time.
    9.see 8.

    * European : Dutch , French , Germany, Americans , Japanese and Turkisch etc.



  • 'Ahu kura ahia, mansia nia'

    AnisJ
    User
    User icon of AnisJ
    spacer line
     

  • As for the origins of the National language Malay language or for INDOnesian language , of course the backgrounds explains enough the several influences of these 'world-civilisation' had on INDOnesia, as a country ....
  • As somebody of Turkish origin you probably are pleased to hear that INDOnesians use words like:
  • sabun,
  • duniya ..... among others ......


  • 'Ahu kura ahia, mansia nia'

    sidia
    User
    User icon of sidia
    spacer line
     


    On 06-03-2007 15:44 AnisJ wrote:

    ...
    ..............................

  • With all repects, for your explanation Sid, I thought that this is a colonial explanation ..... is not the real meaning : a female dancer of the court, the Kraton .....


    ...


  • " .... is not there also a layer in between of people loyal to Dutch colonial gouvernment like:
  • Moluccans,
  • Menadonese of the Northern part of Sulawesi island.
  • Other native people ....... than these two.


    ...

  • Onkel Anis (or Uncle Anis Emoticon: Smile ) or Om Anis Yth.
    Yes , its a colonial explanation , see : "so keep in mind the historical context where these terms while explaining them "
    Thats what alicetiner ask.
    * about the moluccans and menadonese .
    There are also diference beteween the native Mollucas , Menadonese (so called inlander) and the other groups Moluccans/Menadonese who are serving the Dutch and are christians.
    Its apartheid society with racial and religious basic.
    The Moluccans/Menadonese have special privilege , like higher salary etc.



    Bisa dicek mas . http://omsid.multiply.com/

    AnisJ
    User
    User icon of AnisJ
    spacer line
     

  • I always thought Nyai was the name of a female dancer .......


  • 'Ahu kura ahia, mansia nia'

    sidia
    User
    User icon of sidia
    spacer line
     

    No , in this context is Nyai a concubine .
    Btw , the other NYAI is the title of the so called Quen of the South Sea.
    In fact she was a hightpriest.
    Her name was NYAI Loro Kidul.
    (googlen maar Emoticon: Smile )


    Bisa dicek mas . http://omsid.multiply.com/

    AnisJ
    User
    User icon of AnisJ
    spacer line
     

  • You mean this one:




  • 'Ahu kura ahia, mansia nia'

    sidia
    User
    User icon of sidia
    spacer line
     

    Yes , yes , yes.
    Betoel Nyo.


    Bisa dicek mas . http://omsid.multiply.com/

    AnisJ
    User
    User icon of AnisJ
    spacer line
     

  • "...... plan 2 'Sid' it is just an image ..... I am able to hear your hormones, gear ..... Emoticon: Clown Emoticon: Clown Emoticon: Yes! Emoticon: Yes! "


  • 'Ahu kura ahia, mansia nia'

    alicetiner
    User
    spacer line
     

    I HAVE MORE QUESTIONS, CHECK THE END OF THE MESSAGE!

    Hi I'm back again,
    I read all your explanations, thank you very much sidia for the lengthy explanation on all the terms I mentioned above.

    And yes anis sabun and dünya (dunya if you can't see that special Turkish character) are Turkish meaning soap and world, I'm impressed to hear we have common words with Indonesian, I had no idea before! Also in the novel the word "sihir" is mentioned as a type of magic that (I assume) Arabs do. Sihir means magic in Turkish, which I am pretty sure we adopted from Arabic and means the same thing in that language. Also thanks for sharing that beautiful picture of the female goddess!! It looks similar to Thai paintings in a way?

    Did you know that Japanese and Korean are close to Turkish and Finnish? I am learning Japanese right now and the sentence structure and the grammatical order of sentence particles are almost exactly the same; also I don't know the exact grammatical term for it but you also add letters at the end of a word to alter it, like any kind of tenses.
    per example:
    gitmek is to go,
    gittim is i went,
    gidelim is let's go,
    gidelim mi? is shall we go
    gittin mi? is did you go,
    gidebilir miyim? is can i go
    and it goes on and on and on with very complicated structures that are very hard to translate into English like gidebilirmiy misim?, gitsek mi?, gidebilecekmiy misiz? etc. we have some common words like "ii" (いい Emoticon: Wink which is "iyi" in Turkish which means good in English! Also the Hungarian people are of Turkish decent! I just wanted to present some information about my culture in exchange for your help about your culture.

    I read 1/3 of the book and it's getting pretty dramatic, detailing various practices and habits of the colonial era which are pretty repugnant indeed. I have more questions and would be happy if you answer them!

    1. Nyo, Sinyo (I see the explanation above but per example 2 messages above this one I see sidia calling Anisj "Betoel Nyo" and I guess that doesn't refer to his definition: "Sinyo/Nyo : Nick name of the male descendants of the Dutch /European with Native womans" but rather something else. The main character of the book is Minke who is a native Javanese/Indonesian who is always called either Nyo or [I think this is the more formal form] Sinyo by other natives. Does this mean something like the English "hey boy" "hey man" or "hey you")
    2. Raden Mas (ploice officer comes to arrest him for an unknown reason and Minke says: "I am a Raden Mas, I can't be treated this way")
    3. forum privilegiatium (which I understand is some sort of privilege. again Minke says he has this status to the police officer who comes to arrest him. my question is what type of privilege this is and what sorts of benefits it offers to the person who is under this privilege)
    4. Ndoro (appears together with number 2 as Ndoro Raden Mas in the book, while the police officer is addressing Minke)

    Thank you very much! I will check back again in a few days!



    alicetiner
    User
    spacer line
     

    I have another question apart from the linguistic aspect of the book.
    During the search I made about this book I have found out that it was banned in Indonesia a year after its publication in 1980, for I don't exactly understand why? Also it remained banned until very recently 2005 and again I don't really know why? I read in Wiki that it was criticized for the "disapproval of the people" and also some Marxist-Leninist content, which I must say the book has no mentioning neither directly nor indirectly of this philosophy. Could you inform me more on the subject?

    Also did anybody read the book? What do you think about it? About the literary value and what I am more interested is the political content of the book, what did Pramoedya's depiction of the Indonesian society of the time made you think, is it correct, exaggerated, too one-sided. Share your opinion with me! It is hard to read such a book without having any substantial background information, so I wanna make up for my lack of knowledge with your much valued comments.

    Thank you



    AnisJ
    User
    User icon of AnisJ
    spacer line
     

    Ali yth.,

  • I'd seen the Turkish documentary about the Silk Road , after that I'm convinced of the Asiatic backgrounds of the Turkish people; the members of this, also Turkish sponsored documentary, spoke Turkish with Uygur people and most of it was understood, remarkable ..... Europeans are stupid if they do not exept Turkish membership for the EEC ... this country is able to bridge Europe with Asia .....
  • Because of his 'close connection' (Pramuja A.) with the INDOnesian Communist Party, at its peak it was in extend the third after Russia and China, the military/Islamist Gouvernment, under the influence of the U.S.A., got 'allergic' for people effected by 'communist ideas' ..... several million, so-called 'communist' (most of them accused of being ....), are killed ........
  • nyo in this meaning is of nyong meaning boy when men got familiar they call themselves, sometimes nyo/..ng ... most INDOnesians consider calling people by name, as 'unpolite' especially when the are different of age ....... in stead of other 'western people' ..... if you know somebody who is elder to you, only if the person allows you .......


  • 'Ahu kura ahia, mansia nia'

    alicetiner
    User
    spacer line
     

    Thank you AnisJ for your support of Turkey's entry. I am not fully convinced that it would be the rightest thing to do culturally but in a world of economical loss and gain and cooperation it would be best for my country's economic interests to join the union.

    And yes Turkish people lived in North of China as early as 250BCE during the Warring State period of the Zhou dynasty and engaged in trade of horses for silk and rice and other commodities. Then we emigrated to the West.

    I got to know some people from the Turkic (we call them Türki) people of West Asia (Azerbaijan and Turkmenistan), also some Turkish people living in southern Russia, where some of states have a large Turkish population. I was able to understand almost everything they said. We also have 2 Azerbaijan TV reception in Turkey which I watch sometimes and understand some of it. The good thing about the Turkish they speak is very old Turkish to a Turk of Turkey, that's why their words sound like poetry to me when I listen to them and remember all the very old originally Turkish words they use and try to keep them in mind for my further use. We now use much much more Arabic and Persian in our language instead of using those old Turkish words.



    alicetiner
    User
    spacer line
     

    wow, that's pretty sad, I should read more about Indonesian history I guess.
    questions
    what does "yth." mean when you wrote "Ali yth."
    I wonder why you write INDOnesian with Indo in capitals, what is the implication?

    thanks



    AnisJ
    User
    User icon of AnisJ
    spacer line
     

  • "... it means 'Dear' ..... in INDOnesian of 'yang terhormat'; when you start a letter people often use this phrase ...... 'it is polite' .....

  • When INDOnesia was founded there were several ideas about the country, one of it is being a republic or a united states ..... so republicans or unitarians.
    The name INDOnesia is also linked with India, which for me is totally wrong with all the respect for that country, which INDOnesia is also closely culturly connected, the real name should actually be: Nusantara, meaning Islands of Communication ..... Indonesia is derived from, I guess the Greek words Indos Nesos meaning Indian Islands (!!!) ........ by an English scientist named Logan.


  • 'Ahu kura ahia, mansia nia'

    alicetiner
    User
    spacer line
     

    alright man thanks for the explanation!
    and so.. what about INDOnesia ?



    sidia
    User
    User icon of sidia
    spacer line
     

    1. abt Nyo , I am teasing Nyo Anis .
    Some times the Indonesian call people from Moluccans .
    Not the same as Sinyo as the Indo-European.
    2. Raden Mas was a title of the Indonesian nobility.
    The Indonesian society is still feodal till the beginning of the 20th century.
    3 See 2 .
    4. Ndoro : "aanspreek titel"= maybe can someone translate it for me.?
    Alicetiner , Indonesia is the biggest Moslim country . Emoticon: Nooo
    The Turkish were helping the Acehnese around 1870 to built an army and the navy of Aceh.


    Bisa dicek mas . http://omsid.multiply.com/

    alicetiner
    User
    spacer line
     

    sidia,

    thanks again for your explanations, but I still need explanation for number 3. I need to know "type of privilege this is and what sorts of benefits" as I wrote above. Is it a formal or informal privilege and what type of benefit, legal, economical, familial. I would be happy if you could explain these if you know the content of the privilege.

    why do you have a sad face next to the fact that Indonesia is the biggest Muslim country? I don't understand.

    I just checked Wiki and saw the flag of the Free Aceh Movement!!! It's almost identical to our flag, that is impressive, I will definitely read more about it after my exams. Acehnese is mentioned in the book but I didn't know their connection to Turks. I may write a paper about this book in the following weeks by the way, I will share with you and AnisJ if you guys want to read it.



    alicetiner
    User
    spacer line
     

    Anis J,

    the entire title for the elder is the same in Turkey too, there are many many different titles to address them and they heavily depend on the context and the situation. Per example you may call a male older then you abi (literally agabey) amca, the former literally meaning older brother, the latter uncle. But depending on your distance to the person, where you are talking to them and your own perception of the age of the person you are talking to along with your perception of how close or young he sees you as a friend. If you call the person amca, and if he is not too old then he MAY be offended because he may think that you see him older than he actually is. Or at times you may call the person abi to make him feel good about his age, because under normal terms he would be called amca due to his advanced age. Also calling someone abi that you would normally call amca means that you feel close to that person despite the apparent difference of age. I, personally, encountered all of these combinations and used the two words interchangeably in various situations before. And this is only one example, there are way to many, some not present in other cultures like "baci" which is used to refer to the wife of someone you know closely and exclusively in situations where you want to emphasize that you respect her because she is the wife of your close friend.

    alright, me back to my reading now Emoticon: Smile



    sidia
    User
    User icon of sidia
    spacer line
     

    Indonesia is the biggest Moslim country , the have adapted arabs in their language and culture.
    The reason of placing of an emoticon because i think that you as a turkisch student (turkish national ?) must know that Indonesia is the biggest Moslim country , and they have adapted the language and arab culture.
    The kings of Aceh , Bantam (west Java) , Mataram (Java) , Ternate-Tidore (Mollucans) etc have also the title Sultan.

    abt 3. Minke have according the feodal system (his .
    Also there are rules how to speak with each other , to a younger , to older people or the same age .
    And to a lower or higher person or the same social level.
    Between poor man and rich man or between common people and the nobility.



    Bisa dicek mas . http://omsid.multiply.com/

    sidia
    User
    User icon of sidia
    spacer line
     

    abt 3 : Minke have according the feodal system (his nobility a sort kind of privilege.)
    That is why the police off. say Ndoro to Minke ,( dutch = 'Mijn Heer " Emoticon: Wink .
    There are 8 level how people to speak each other in a conversation.
    Also there------------


    Bisa dicek mas . http://omsid.multiply.com/


    You have to be logged in to post a message. You can login by clicking here.
    If you do not have an account yet, you can register yourself here.



    79,021,193 topic views - 236,342 posts - 13,704 topics - 27,677 members - last post @ 29-01-2020 09:08 CET

    Created by indahnesia.com · feedback & contact · © 2000-2020
    Other websites by indahnesia.com: ticketindonesia.info · kamus-online.com · indonesiepagina.nl · suvono.nl

    128,907,724 pageviews Discover Indonesia Online at indahnesia.com