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tiler
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I read a post below about "madly in love with an Indonesian girl". I found the replies extremely interesting. I was hoping some of you insightful people could help me out with my bind.

Here's my situation;

I'm a westerner and I have a 6 month old baby with my Indonesian partner. We both live in Jakarta. At the time she got pregnant we were just bf and gf. For my own reasons, I didn't want to get married. My partner and her family strongly and persistently pressured me into getting at least a religious marriage (nikkah di bawa tangan). So I did. My partner also pressured me everyday to get circumcised. I really didn't want to, but to maintain the peace, finally succumbed. Now, thinking this would be the end of it, my partner is now moved to pushing for legal marriage. She has even threatened to take our daughter away if I don't agree to it. She is also constantly pushing me to invest in property near her parents house, even though I don't have the money.

The reason I don't want to marry her legally is because I don't completely trust her love for me or her intentions. I also found out that in the early stages of our relationship she was cheating on me and was a mistress for a rich business man. So I'm aware of her materialistic nature. At the same time, I love my daughter and want what's best for her.

As background info, we're both in our mid 20's. I'm university educated and her high school.

So what are your opinions? I'm dying to hear someone's take on this as I've been unable to disclose the full story to anyone so far.





sglange
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Hi there Tiler! In life, its wise to decide on your own rather than the opinion of others. Wish you all the best.



kiwimave
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Hmmm difficult Tiler...you have a big problem which is happening quite often in Indonesia (even though this topic is still "tabu", also on this forum) and you should seriously consider your options. Just think in basic "negotiation" terms. You have something to offer (financial security) and she has something to offer (your child). Just make sure u have a sound job (in NL or Indo), that makes ur position much better. With money you can buy almost everything in Indonesia, even your child (back).

Also I understand they forced you to become Muslim, just take advantage of this in principle bad thing (ieder negatief ding heb zijn goed ding): in Islamic law the man is the boss of his wife. Depends on where u stay, for example if you stay in Tanggerang you have good chances you can get sole responsibility for your child if you apply Islamic law.

Anyway for the child it seems to be much better if you could bring him/her secretly to Holland and never return to Indonesia.

Is there no web site on internet with ppl who have the same bad experience (lotgenotencontact)? They can probably help you..otherwise try to get in touch with the expat community in Jakarta, I'm sure this is a well-known problem.


Gracias. Sama sama

sidia
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On 28-12-2006 10:16 kiwimave wrote:
Hmmm difficult Tiler...you have a big problem

" in Islamic law the man is the boss of his wife. "


Islamic law ??? You are kiding Kiwi . Emoticon: Smile
Which one ?

I have some question.
1. Arv you sure that the baby is yours ? ( Sorry to ask it.)
When you kawin dibawah tangan , are you a Moslim ?
If not they cannot allow that you can marry her with you .
It is forbidden acc. the Islamic law IF one of the partner was not a Moslim.

see:
1. Undang2 Perkawinan thn 1974 (Perkawinan campuran)
2. see alsoHukum Perkawinan Islam.(not the same as no 1.)
3, Some info : http://www.expat.or.id/info/nikahbawahtangan.html



Bisa dicek mas . http://omsid.multiply.com/

Malam
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Hoy Tiler,
You just asked for a opinian of strangers.
So I can and may say, don`t marriage her she is a golddigger.
The child was a way to give her a good life.
If she was properly in love with you en she had a decent mind, you two hadn`t a child now.
A Indonesian girl, moslima too, don`t get a child before she`s married.
In your situation for sure you have met a golddigger.
Anyway I will say, that child is your responsebility and you have to care for it.



Veer01
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I don't know man...seems to me she drags you into a world you don't wanna belong in.But seeing you two have a baby,you could consider turning the tables and put some pressure on her too. Emoticon: Nooo



tiler
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Thanks for all your replies so far. If I could just respond...

sglange - You're right. Ultimately, it's a decision I'll need to make on my own. At the moment, my mind changes from week to week. So other peoples input, even strangers, is still appreciated. But yes, the final decision will have to be mine.

kiwimave - You make a good point in referring to negotiation. It's not something I'd normally do in a relationship. But it seems if I don't, she'll just walk all over me. So playing some hard ball, although not the preferred option, makes sense.

Sidia - You ask a fair question, but yes, in this case, I'm certain the baby is mine. We were living together at the time. When she was born, her features just confirmed it. The nikkah dibawah tangan was more of a show for the family. An Imam was present and I went through the process. But I hadn't become a muslim before the ceremony ie. I don't have a muslim name or was only circumcised after the ceremony.

Malam - Thanks for your point of view. I agree with most of what you say. In a sense, I guess the laugh is on her because she thought I had more disposable income than I actually do.

Veer01 - You're right. That's the approach I'll need to take.

At the moment, my daughter's citizenship is Indonesian. Because we weren't legally married when she was born, I have no legal rights in Indonesia to her. My name is not even on the birth certificate. If I marry my partner, can my daughter then take my citizenship as well? This would be the only incentive I see for marriage.




sidia
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On 29-12-2006 04:26 tiler wrote:
If I marry my partner, can my daughter then take my citizenship as well? This would be the only incentive I see for marriage.


Indonesian Law is almost the same as the Duth Law.
It's possible with the cooperation of the mother.
Yr daughter get yr name and nationality, and she can live as indonesian citizen .
Maybe you can arranged it without marrying the mother .
Or marry her and divorced her after yr daughter get her 2nd nationality .


Bisa dicek mas . http://omsid.multiply.com/

andre
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Hi Tiler,

Find a lawyer

All the questions you post on this forum can be answered by a lawyer. A lawyer can also point out other options, that require insight in Indonesian creative law Emoticon: Smile

Your position will be much2 stronger if your daughter has your nationality. It will give you the independence to decide on your and your daughters future. A couple of questions you have to ask yourself:

Do you trust your "wife"?
Did your personal reasons not to get married change?
Where will you live five years from now?

I agree with sglange: The fact that you ask this question on a forum answers your question....



andre
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By the way: More then one Imam told me that getting circumcised is not required for a muslim.



tiler
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Thanks for your information sidia. I'll look further into the citizenship angle.

Andre, an Indonesian lawyer with insight/kknowledge on this issue would be ideal. But it's quite difficult to find one of that nature. If anyone happens to know one that would specialise in this and can speak some English, his number would be great Emoticon: Smile

As for not requiring a circumcision, it's a little late to take that on board I'm afraid. Not that explaining the Imams view would've gotten through to my partner anyway Emoticon: Frustrated



sidia
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There is a Mix-couple organisation in jakarta.
Try the search function of Indahnesia.

Circumscised is always required (wajib).
See also Surah An-Nahl 123 .
And she cannot married with non muslim .!!!!


Bisa dicek mas . http://omsid.multiply.com/

kiwimave
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Om Sid Y. Th...

When will there be a Al-Quran updated version?

Al-Quran Vista?

If Allah doesnt want a muslim and non-muslim to marry, why can they still get children? It's the same DNA..


Gracias. Sama sama

sidia
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On 30-12-2006 12:55 kiwimave wrote:


When will there be a Al-Quran updated version?


Update ?
No one can changed the words of God.
The same as the Jews , The Christians and the Hindus.
Emoticon: Bye bye Emoticon: Bye bye


Bisa dicek mas . http://omsid.multiply.com/

Yogya-Bali
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On 30-12-2006 13:18 sidia wrote:

...

Update ?
No one can changed the words of God.
The same as the Jews , The Christians and the Hindus.
Emoticon: Bye bye Emoticon: Bye bye


Hahaha, you make me laughing Sidia. The words of God.....
All these draconic religious books are written by human beings, same as you and I. And awful human beings who only want to have power over others.
Rather reed some good literature.




Yogya-Bali
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On 29-12-2006 09:55 sidia wrote:

...


Indonesian Law is almost the same as the Duth Law.
Its possible with the cooperation of the mother.
Yr daughter get yr name and nationality, and she can live as indonesian citizen .
Maybe you can arranged it without marrying the mother .
Or marry her and divorced her after yr daughter get her 2nd nationality .


Sorry Tiler, I don't know whether you are Dutch or other nationality??
But if you're Dutch, the suggested way above is not working. Things have been changed since april 2003. If you marry her then you have to recognize the child during the marriage as your own child. After that you have to wait 3 years before you can apply for the Dutch citizenship for your child..... BUT... you have to prove that you have been taken care for her for this 3 years, financially and in other ways, AND... you have to prove that you were living together with the mother in a decent relationship.
If you dont want to marry, then you can still recognize your child trough a notary (notaris), legalize this acknowledgement, and then the same situation as above concerning the 3 years waiting, proving that you take care for your child and living with the mother together.




Yogya-Bali
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On 29-12-2006 11:28 andre wrote:
Hi Tiler,

Find a lawyer

All the questions you post on this forum can be answered by a lawyer. A lawyer can also point out other options, that require insight in Indonesian creative law Emoticon: Smile


Andre, unfortunately most of the lawyers will take side for the Indonesian national (although their client is a foreigner and the Indonesian part is the opposition). Hilarious, but often true.
It's a money thing. If you have a lot of money then you can afford yourself a "normal" lawyer who will choose your side.
Oherwise, your wife/girlfriend is just a golddigger like is said here above. So, she's only concerned about the money. Try to make a deal cause normally these type of girls are short minded and will "fall" for a "one-time" payment and you will get your daughter.
Where did you met her? Hopefully not in Jl. Jaksa (cause then it is obvious the way she's behaving and you need a "preman" Emoticon: Wink ?!



sidia
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On 31-12-2006 00:06 Yogya-Bali wrote:

...


If you dont want to marry, then you can still recognize your child trough a notary (notaris), legalize this acknowledgement, and then the same situation as above concerning the 3 years waiting, proving that you take care for your child and living with the mother together.

Still need the cooperation of the mother.
The child is Indonesian. Emoticon: Smile
Indonesian Government / Law will always protect the Indonesians.

You can marry the mother , recognised the child( and you must be a muslim)
Or you " buy " her Emoticon: Angry from the mother.
Or forget every hing Emoticon: Angry


Bisa dicek mas . http://omsid.multiply.com/

searching
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What a mess you are into, my friend.


Islamic law ??? You are kiding Kiwi .
Which one ?


I believe Kimiwae is right, but at the moment I haven't had time to search for it. I still have a hangover after my trips.

My suggestion is that you get married with her (why don't you suggest to marry outside Indonesia?), get a good job, then filing a divorce. You must make sure both of you sign the separation of wealth legally before marriage.
Please don't invest, just rent house, so you will have less material loss.

IF I have time, I will ask my friend who really knows Indonesian's law.



Find out the real face of Islam, read www. faithfreedom.org

searching
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Oh, I can't help to rethink again and think that you can also play different cards.

Pressure and blackmailing is her game. If you show that you succumb to blackmail, then you will lose all the time.
I know you love your daughter, but when negotiating with the woman, don't show that too much.
It's harder for a religious muslima (and materialistic too) to have a baby without a husband and proper marriage - it can give her negative social stigma in her society. You can play this card as well. It's up to you.


Find out the real face of Islam, read www. faithfreedom.org

sidia
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On 01-01-2007 04:54 searching wrote:
What a mess you are into, my friend.


...


IF I have time, I will ask my friend who really knows Indonesians law.

Basicly the Indonesian Law (Perdata) is almost the same as the Dutch Law (B.W).
Kawin Bawah Tangan between Non Muslim and Muslim is also forbidden, thus illegal en not valid.
The mother can always ask financial support for the baby and ask the LBH for legal advice.
Tiler , be careful , you have indirectly recognised the baby as yr own daughter , thus you are responsible for her.


Bisa dicek mas . http://omsid.multiply.com/

Yogya-Bali
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Yes, but still not legal Sid. And even when it's legal then you have still the 3 years to wait before you even can apply for the Dutch nationality (that doesn't mean she will get it when your proves aren't sufficient).
Also if Tiler would marry her Searching, then still you have the period of 3 years. In the meanwhile Tiler is stucked for more then 3 years with this golddigger.
That's what I'm describing in other topics about the mess bule's make for their descendants in this country and that's why I'm so sceptical about these relations based on so-called "love". There are always victims out of these naive relationships....... and these are the children.
No this is really a difficult case for Tiler. Although money could help, then there's still the nationality problem. If Tiler could now recognize the child (with the cooperation of the mother, otherwise it's impossible), then still his daughter is Indonesian according the Indonesian law and still cannot become a Dutch national. You wanna take her out of the country?? Not possible. The Dutch embassy will never provide you with a visa if the mother doesn't agree.
It's a real mess Tiler.



tiler
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Thanks all for continuing to share your information and opinions. It's much appreciated and has provided me with some more direction.

I should have pointed out earlier that I'm not a Dutch national. After some research though, I've discovered that I can, with my partner's co-operation, apply for my country's citizenship for my daughter, based on descent. I'm unsure at this stage whether that will grant me greater legal right to her or not. In Indonesia, I doubt it will make a difference. But at least it will provide her with more opportunity in her education and work in future years.

Yogya-Bali, When my partner was pregnant, we made a statement at that time with a notaris acknowledging myself as the father. So perhaps that document will become useful down the track.

Searching - The advice you gave in your last post is something I've previously pondered myself. If I broke off the relationship completely with my partner, would she eventually give up our daughter to me? At least this way, she will be free and able to marry someone else much easier and not have to shoulder the social stigma of being a single mother. I know of a few Indonesian women who have had a child out of wedlock and given the child to another family member to care for once the relationship broke down. This may inevitably be the approach I have to take.

The more I think about marrying her, the less wise an option it seems. It will likely only complicate things further both bureaucratically and emotionally.



indahs
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I would not judge your Indonesian partner as a gold-digger yet although she has lousy past. People have ability to change.

As Indonesian woman living in Indonesia, having a "kumpul kebo" with bule, having a "illegal" kid (oh, ok, you have a notary statement, but is it also included in your kid's birth certificate that you are the father?), not having university degree (means: difficult to have good career in Indonesia) is tough and difficult. I can imagine her stress and perhaps frustration.

I think it is important that both of you know what you want instead of what her parents want. At some point I believe that she was being influenced by her family instead of what both you as couple need to be together. It is so typical Indonesian parents (and sometimes the extended family!! huaaa Emoticon: Angry ) that they interfere their children's marriage life. If it is too much I don't find it funny anymore.

Do you still love your Indonesian partner? Do you still want to be together with her and having a happy family together with her in the next 10 years? I think you are the only one who know the answer best!

good luck!



History does have tendency to repeat itself, it only costs more. (Verleyen)

Yogya-Bali
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On 01-01-2007 13:11 tiler wrote:
Yogya-Bali, When my partner was pregnant, we made a statement at that time with a notaris acknowledging myself as the father. So perhaps that document will become useful down the track.


Unfortunately this statement is against the Indonesian law and nothing worth. I did the same thing years ago only to find out that the notaris made a document which is not according the Indonesian law; even worse: against the law. And 2 other Dutch nationals did the same thing. It's nothing worth in Indonesia and it was nothing worth in Holland: not accepted.
So that means that already 4 people were the victim of a notaris who produced a document against the law.




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