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Dutchess
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I wonder about how many euris or rupiahs does an average citizen (or maybe less..) in Djakarta needs a month to live a decent life?
Anybody a clue? Emoticon: Clown



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sidia
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from 100/200 euri to 1000/2000 euri Emoticon: Smile


Bisa dicek mas . http://omsid.multiply.com/

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what would be the wage of the average man/woman on the street? I mean not the becak guy, or the kaki lima, but the guy in the office, the teacher ot the sales agent. (mr/mrs average)



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p.s. they changed "dj" to "j" a few years ago Emoticon: Smile



sidia
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From 100 euro to 250 euro.Depends the experience / graduate.
Mostly of them have 2 jobs or their partners are also working for some extra money.
I have heard from a friend (expat) , for 500 euro/month they have a nice / decent income.


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Dutchess
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In 1993 I was in Djakarta for a vacation and I remember the dirty slums next to the luxe hotels like Hilton and so on.
I assume those people living in those slums don't have a job at all, so live in poverty. Is there any social security for them?

Or are they just abandoned?


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kiwimave
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On 21-12-2006 11:58 Dutchess wrote:
In 1993 I was in Djakarta for a vacation and I remember the dirty slums next to the luxe hotels like Hilton and so on.
I assume those people living in those slums dont have a job at all, so live in poverty. Is there any social security for them?

Or are they just abandoned?


Of course there's no social security. They have to depends on family or friends (or on the local mosque, if they promise to become more religious)


Gracias. Sama sama

Dutchess
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Of course theres no social security. They have to depends on family or friends (or on the local mosque, if they promise to become more religious)


Actually people, or worst government is just indifferent about this huge group. I mentioned Jakarta but the same situation is likely to happen in other big cities. No any party within the government who bothers about this?
Economy is kind of booming in Indonesia, but I believe that only a tiny part will make profit. Right?


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harry_ej
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Economy booming in INdonesia? If you compare the annual economic growth in indonesia (abt 7%) with the average annual growth in Netherlands (2%) you could conclude that the indonesian economy is booming.

HOwever this is a simplification and does not take into consideration certain other facts such as 1) the population growth and 2) the GRoss Domestic Product (GDP) of Indonesia compared to the GDP of The Netherlands, and 3) how the economic growth is accieved.

If you compare the GDP of both countries Holland already has a very high income per capita and GDP whereas indonesia still has a low GDP. (even more so when you compare the GDP per capita between the two countries) And 7% of a little bit is still far less then 2% of a lot rite?

The population growth in indonesia (1.8% annually) as opposed to that of the Netherlands (0,6% annually) which (roughly) means that indonesia should at least have 3 times the economic growth (in %) of holland to be at par with the Netherlands. Then the difference is already not as big anymore (3 x 2 = 6% as opposed to the 7% that indonesia actually has) If you see it this way the economy in Indonesia only grows 1% more than the Dutch economy.

There are other facts to take into consideration such as the distribution of the wealth, the state of the economy/infrastructure/amenities etc, etc, etc, (not only the GDP but also other factors have to be taken into consideration here). A huge portion of the Indonesian population does not benefit in any way from the economic growth. The same can be said for holland to an extent, but there is at least a system there that distributes (at least a little bit of the economic growth) among the whole population. (herverdeling van middelen onder andere middels het belastingstelsel via uitkeringen aan werkelozen/arbeidsongeschikten en ouderen die jaarlijks groeien met de lonen en inflatie middels een indexering.

Another important thing to look at is how the economic growth is obtained. In indonesia a part of the growth is achieved by destroying (irrevirsably) large parts of the natural resources. (last year alone 8% of the Kalimantan rainforest, 4% of sumatera's remaining forests and 2% of Irian Jaya's rainforest got lost forever) There are many other destructive uses of environmental resources in Indonesia that lead to short term gain (economic growth) but long term poverty, because these resources are lost forever and gaining these resources have often forever damaged other resources as well so losses can actually double up!!!. For example: loss of huge parts of the country due to soil erosion, caused by deforestation, mining etc. habitat degradation caused by land clearing by use of fire, land destruction caused by removal of topsoil, due to bad agricultural practises which will leave the country barren and unfertile, massive pollution of land, water and sky caused by fires, mining, overpopulation, bad waste management, destructive reef fishing etc.

So in Indonesia a large part of the growth of the economy goes one-on-one at the expense of the countries (natural) resources and should actually be substracted from the GDP figure, it can be seen as GDP loss (the natural assets that are extracted, mined, won are not included in the GDP loss figure, they remain part of the GDP) The figure for GDP loss in INdonesia is calculated at about 16% of the GDP (mostly being put on the bill for future generations, thank you very much!!!!) and should therefore be substracted from the figure of the GDP meaning the real GDP would be 7% -(0,16x 7%) = 5.88% real GDP in Indonesia
Holland has managed to obtain some balance between environmental use/destruction and economic growth meaning that Holland does not have such a high figure of GDP loss as Indonesia (about 3%) so in holland the net GDP is about 2% - (0,03x 2%) = 1.94%

It is often discussed and debated whether the gains from depletion of natural assets should be seen as GDP or as a depreciation of a (natural) asset. This could mean that the part of the GDP that comes from the winning and selling of natural resources should not be included in the GDP figure, i think it is not fair to do so.



Dutchess
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Interesting stuff on the Indonesian society. Thx. So the major part of indonesians is still struggling for life?
Also shocked about destroying natural resources and it seems it still goes on.
But with 245 milj people living overthere is sort of hell of a problem to satisfy them. Most of them still living in Java?

http://globaledge.msu.edu/ibrd(...)tro.asp?CountryID=20



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harry_ej
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About 40% of the Indonesian society belong to the highest class to lowest middle class, meaning these people range from being very well off to being able to maintain just a normal lifestyle. The remaining 60% live just above the poverty line to way below the poverty line. MOst of them can still just get by but many rely on help from others. The good thing about Indonesia and basically every poor SE-asian country is that everybody seems to be able to just get enough food, people really help each other out.
Natural resources have been ill managed for decades this mismanagement has accelerated especially after the fall of Suharto. Especially the tropical forests have suffered from that.

Indonesia has always been an nett exporter of oil, but now it has to import crude oil because the local wells are not even sufficient anymore to meet domestic needs. Also the quality of the remaining oil is getting worse, costs of processing and refining are therefore getting higher. Most natural resources are won by foreign companies, wood mainly by china and malaysia, oil mainly by USA and diamonds and metals mostly also by foreign multinational

Primary forest cover in Kalimantan is now down to below 25%!!! Secundary forest cover on K is 30% So K is now only still bit more than half covered in forest of which less then half is still in pristine condition. In 1986 figures for K were 45% primary forest and 28% secundary forest, so the decline of the forest on the Indonesian part of this island is staggering. Forest cover on Sumatera is down to 19% in 2006 from 35% in 1986. Irian Jaya still maintains most of it's forest cover (72% in 2005 from 80% in 1986) but there large concessions have been sold to China and the clearcut has begun. Estimates are that half of the current tropical forest of Irian will be gone around 2012.

About half of the population of indonesia (255 mln) is currently living on Jawa, nobody exactly knows how many people live in Jakarta or the greater Jakarta (JABOTABEK) but figures could range anywhere from between 16 million to over 25 million people, which if the latter were true would make Jabotabek about the biggest city on earth.



Dutchess
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Trima kasi banjak for your clear explanation, btw the few words I know. Emoticon: Stupid
I know more about Indonesia from the past, the same old stories from before WW2 and during that time, but I was curious how this Indonesia is doing right now. Gewoon belangstelling..

The good thing about Indonesia and basically every poor SE-asian country is that everybody seems to be able to just get enough food, people really help each other out.

For the basic needs, okay, and indeed remarkable, but what about the youth and education. No chance at all to lead a better life in future, so they are doomed to live their life also for the near and faraway future?



Natural resources have been ill managed for decades this mismanagement has accelerated especially after the fall of Suharto. Especially the tropical forests have suffered from that.

I really thought there were international regulations, only on paper than.


Indonesia has always been an nett exporter of oil, but now it has to import crude oil because the local wells are not even sufficient anymore to meet domestic needs. Also the quality of the remaining oil is getting worse, costs of processing and refining are therefore getting higher. Most natural resources are won by foreign companies, wood mainly by china and malaysia, oil mainly by USA and diamonds and metals mostly also by foreign multinational.

In fact Indonesia is ruled by all those international companies (China, USA) and at our place we contribute to that seeing all those trendy furniture from the far east in the shops downtown.


Primary forest cover in Kalimantan is now down to below 25%!!! Secundary forest cover on K is 30% So K is now only still bit more than half covered in forest of which less then half is still in pristine condition. In 1986 figures for K were 45% primary forest and 28% secundary forest, so the decline of the forest on the Indonesian part of this island is staggering. Forest cover on Sumatera is down to 19% in 2006 from 35% in 1986. Irian Jaya still maintains most of its forest cover (72% in 2005 from 80% in 1986) but there large concessions have been sold to China and the clearcut has begun. Estimates are that half of the current tropical forest of Irian will be gone around 2012.

So, all those international regulations and laws are for de kat z'n zoute delen? The same also applies for Sulawesi? Have you ever been there? I read more postings....

Bye.



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harry_ej
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Ben je wel eens in indo geweest?? I live and work there since many years, but currently i'm back in Holland for a year. Plan to go back to Indo round march next year. I work as personal trainer and accountant and i also am toning my own body up rite now to make it 100% perfect.

It is good to have belangstelling for other cultures, we are not alone and focussing inwards doesn't make us grow.

Your questions: It is evident that a lot of Indonesian yuong people miss out. ONe only has to walk the streets and sees many young "venters" walking around with a wouden crate around their neck trying to sell some permen or roko etc, many even don't do that but are sitting around doing nothing.

INdonesia tends to react very agressive towards comments/critique about how they manage their resources, especally when those critics come from Europa of USA. And they have a point, look what a mess the USA is making with their environment, and what Europe has done in the past. A country cannot be told what it has to do/how it has to manage it's natural resources.

Indonesia is not ruled by those countries/companies, but it sells it's commodities or the rights to mine/harvest those commodeties to the country that offers the most (still a fraction of what these resources are actually worth). Chinese have and own many businesses in Indonesia, similar to malaysia, Thailand, Philippines etc.

As i said there are no international laws a country has to abide by when it comes to how they want to use their resources (forest etc) if indonesia decides tomorrow to clearcut all it's remaining forest there is nobody who can do anything about that.

Sulawesi is a beautiful island, in my opinion the most beautiful one of them all. It is very mountainous and there is still some forest in those mountains (especially up north and in the center) The lowland forest on sulawesi has gone.







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gdp of indonesia is a staggering $860 billon , whereas Holland has a GDP of only $500 billion, Indonesia's economy is alot bigger looking at pure quantity! Its sad however that all of this growth and booming economy now goes at even higher cost. Palmoil plantations ,mining, deforestation destroy the environment and in the end will also destroy the complete economy.

the only lasting way to make indonesia really prosperous is by treasuring its natural beauty. ( e.g by ecotourism and durable exoitation) and if indoensia is about to clear all of its remaining forest it is doomed for bankrupcy and civil war with not many countries willing to help, Haiti is an example here what could happen. I think and hope however that it will not go this far as there as it is more and more known that destruction of forest is bad for the country. minister kalla recently forced more strict regulations on this as I was told.



Sugi5
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I hear a normal waitress in a jakarta bar gets about 850'000 a month (450'000 base salary + 200'000 in tips + some extra food & travel allowances). That works out to about USD 3 per day. If it is true, it is amazing how these girls can keep on smiling so much!



Dutchess
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If it is true, it is amazing how these girls can keep on smiling so much!


They have to,
to please the customers..

850000 INDONESIAN RUPIAH (IDR) = 72.2145 EURO (EUR)




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Dutchess
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Ben je wel eens in indo geweest?? I live and work there since many years, but currently i'm back in Holland for a year. Plan to go back to Indo round march next year. I work as personal trainer and accountant and i also am toning my own body up rite now to make it 100% perfect.

->Sterker, ben er geboren. Spent part of my youngest youth near the Tangku Ban Prahu.
->An expat aiming for the 100% perfect body, does this exist? People always have something to complain about, ladies in particular.


It is good to have belangstelling for other cultures, we are not alone and focussing inwards doesn't make us grow.
->I consider myself as sort of global citizen.. Emoticon: Cooool

Your questions: It is evident that a lot of Indonesian yuong people miss out. ONe only has to walk the streets and sees many young "venters" walking around with a wouden crate around their neck trying to sell some permen or roko etc, many even don't do that but are sitting around doing nothing.
->And the reason is they don't get any chance at all. Too bad and such a pity, cos I believe especially between youngsters, even amongst them, there must be are talented ones.

INdonesia tends to react very agressive towards comments/critique about how they manage their resources, especally when those critics come from Europa of USA. And they have a point, look what a mess the USA is making with their environment, and what Europe has done in the past. A country cannot be told what it has to do/how it has to manage it's natural resources.
->Agressive? Public opinion can't be ignored, is it, particularly if the mass stands up. But that won't happen there think so.

Indonesia is not ruled by those countries/companies, but it sells it's commodities or the rights to mine/harvest those commodeties to the country that offers the most (still a fraction of what these resources are actually worth). Chinese have and own many businesses in Indonesia, similar to malaysia, Thailand, Philippines etc.
->Agree and for the chinese, it's in their genes, always running a business, even here.

As i said there are no international laws a country has to abide by when it comes to how they want to use their resources (forest etc) if indonesia decides tomorrow to clearcut all it's remaining forest there is nobody who can do anything about that.
->Sometimes am watching docu's at the tv from the BBC and watch how the environment is gradually devastated.
Sulawesi is a beautiful island, in my opinion the most beautiful one of them all. It is very mountainous and there is still some forest in those mountains (especially up north and in the center) The lowland forest on sulawesi has gone.
->You wrote specially north, region Manado? Also a city from where it's easy to visit several places , from hear say and brochures.

Emoticon: Worship


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harry_ej
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Yeah u r rite, 100% perfect is bullshit. As long as i'm satisfied it is ok.

The youngsters not getting a chance is sometimes (often) true. However, some are quite lazy and are also not trying. I know a few indonesians who came from very poor backgr. and had all odds against them even though they managed to get out of that and get a decent life just by doing their utmost and trying to cease every opportunity they got. Even though hard it is possible.

Chinese and also white people who are doing well in Asia sometimes maintain a low profile (not flandering their wealth etc) it is good practise to do so because some people can get very envious with them.

Manado, though off the beaten track and very hard to reach by bus (long trip) has some nice rainforest parks in the mountains. There is also a very beautiful marine park (Bunaken) which has one of the most magnificent coral reef areas in indonesia. it is possible to go from Manado to Philipinnes by boat or plane (Davao) I have done it once on a fishing boat, dangerous because of the fact that some pirates roam that par of the sea, so whenever another boat passed us i was ushered down deck so that the people in the passing vessel could not see that there was a rich bule aboard.








harry_ej
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On 16-01-2007 23:45 bloodhoundfromhell wrote:
gdp of indonesia is a staggering $860 billon , whereas Holland has a GDP of only $500 billion, Indonesias economy is alot bigger looking at pure quantity! Its sad however that all of this growth and booming economy now goes at even higher cost. Palmoil plantations ,mining, deforestation destroy the environment and in the end will also destroy the complete economy.


GDP for Indonesia in 2005 was 281 billion USD (some figures say 222 billion) For Netherlands the GDP in 2005 was 595 billion USD.

Puchasing Power Parity (PPP) for Indonesia was 850 billion usd as opposed to 514 billion for the netherlands.

The purchasing power parity method accounts for the relative effective domestic purchasing power of the average producer or consumer within an economy. This can be a better indicator of the living standards of less-developed countries because it compensates for the weakness of local currencies in world markets. The PPP method of GDP conversion is most relevant to non-traded goods and services.

Real GDP par head for indonesia was $1.260 and $35.000 for the Netherlands.

Is the GDP in Holland high??? All scandinavian countries including Denmark have gdp per capita over $45.000, Lux. has $75.000, Belgium has $45.000, France has 40.000, Germany has $48.000. Swissl, Austria have gdp over 45.000, Italy has a gdp of $28.000 (caused mainly by the poor south) USA, Canada, New Zealand and Australia each have a GDP exceeding 40.000.



Dutchess
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Alora.

It's easier to read and understand english than to write english.
Your englsh is too good to be a native Dutch . Right?

Most youngsters tend to be lazy and don't want to work hard. It depends also with what kind of people (probably also lazy...) they are getting along, in stead of motivating or coaching them. Waste of time maybe?
But as you already mentioned, it's kind of hopeless situation. Too bad.

I do have vague plans to go Manado once in my life to explore this region.
It's not my intention to go to other countries from that place, more to start trips from Manado to explore parts of North Sulawesi. Bunaken, heard it's a beautiful place.

Strange enuff I do have some drawbacks going there.

Emoticon: Clown









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harry_ej
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do u mean me??? Ik ben net zo Nederlands als Madurodam of de Afsluitdijk. My English is actually pretty awfull. It is really full of grammatical and other mistakes but i don't really care too much, it is not our native lingo what can we or others expect??

I'm quite happy in the Netherlands now, so quiet and easy, good for recharging batteries, i always have to laugh about the big things that are made out of minor issues here, it is hilarious.







sidia
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On 29-01-2007 14:31 harry_ej wrote:
i always have to laugh about the big things that are made out of minor issues here, it is hilarious.


Mie toe , mie toe . Emoticon: Smile
A dijenkletser , hi hi hi hi


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Dutchess
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Ofkozz you feel happy and easy in this peaceful landscape even burst into hilarious laugther, as people and the media worry about polderique trivial issues. A sign things are going well, therefore hard to imagine how other countries handle normal human issues. Not that bad living here. Somehow I feel privileged

Madurodam, well I thought so, no tarzan style (charcoal english?) Didn't detect major errors in your not too awful lingostyle. Emoticon: Yeah right!








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Dutchess
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harry_ej
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u r cool Dutchess, at least as far as i'm able to judge from ur posts. Good to see that there are still a few nice dutch women??(are u girl??) around. Nope, i'm not trying to hit on you don't worry.

The thing i really miss about Jakarta are the abundant warungs and restaurants, but especially evening food stalls round streets and intersections. In my opinion these places serve the best food, nasi goreng, ikan bakar (mas and laut), ayam goreng dada, patah, mie goreng, etc, etc, etc, for prices that wouldn't even buy you a glass of water in a Dutch restaruant.
Emoticon: Wink




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