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sidia
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On 16-10-2006 12:39 searching wrote:

This is the third time I read you want me to leave this site and I will say to you that I will stay.

. Islam doesnt admit the trinity concept, deny the crucification of jesus, and so on.


O.K. the last time.
That is only my opinion .

Only the Roman Cattolics believe in the trinity , the other chrstian not.
Abt Jesus etc , that is the freedom of everyone to believe in what they have chosen.
Emoticon: Bye bye Emoticon: Bye bye


Bisa dicek mas . http://omsid.multiply.com/

Jeroen
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So what about these masked men, what do they have to do with Jesus, God and Allah? If you ask me, totally nothing.



sidia
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On 17-10-2006 05:08 Jeroen wrote:
So what about these masked men, what do they have to do with Jesus, God and Allah? If you ask me, totally nothing.


To Jeroen or Yerun ?

Yes , indeed . Nothing att all.

Mr Searcher have a big problem , he cant make difference beteween Islam, Moslim , good moslem ? , bad moslem ?
And he have his own truth .Congratulation , good for him.

In his postings he mentioned almost always abt the Islam, The Qur'an , Allah , even he is mentioning YHWH(the god of the Jew) , Allah , hadith etc .

see his own words : Link Islam and teror .(" Islam is identic with terorism" Emoticon: Wink
, Anti Islam and his previous postings.

In my opinion he still nagging the Islam as a religion.
Of course , he is free to speak/write , but nagging is nagging , insulting is insulting.



Bisa dicek mas . http://omsid.multiply.com/

searching
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To Jeroen or Yerun ?

Yes , indeed . Nothing att all.

Mr Searcher have a big problem , he cant make difference beteween Islam, Moslim , good moslem ? , bad moslem ?
And he have his own truth .Congratulation , good for him.

In his postings he mentioned almost always abt the Islam, The Qur'an , Allah , even he is mentioning YHWH(the god of the Jew) , Allah , hadith etc .

see his own words : Link Islam and teror .(" Islam is identic with terorism"
, Anti Islam and his previous postings.

In my opinion he still nagging the Islam as a religion.
Of course , he is free to speak/write , but nagging is nagging , insulting is insulting.


Only after you open Quran and Hadiths, can you say that I am right or wrong. You refuse to open and read yourself, yet you keep saying I insult you.

Jeroen, I only want to show Sidia that he doesn't know much about Quran and Islam if he thinks Islam is the same as Christianity or Judaism.


Find out the real face of Islam, read www. faithfreedom.org

searching
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Back to the topic, the raid is an attempt of terror, by the group belong to you know who.


Find out the real face of Islam, read www. faithfreedom.org

sidia
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On 17-10-2006 09:47 searching wrote:

Only after you open Quran and Hadiths, can you say that I am right or wrong. You refuse to open and read yourself, yet you keep saying I insult you.

Jeroen, I only want to show Sidia that he doesnt know much about Quran and Islam if he thinks Islam is the same as Christianity or Judaism.


After open the Qur' an and Hadith ??????

I have many times opened the books (and reading it also Emoticon: Blush Emoticon: Blush )
Only translated books in Indonesian and or dutch , some times in bahasa england , but not to much , maklum my english is kaput)
Even I read the Bible . And Veda .
Yes , for sure .I am reading the Bible and Al Quran ,but not literally .
Because I am living in the 21th century. Emoticon: Yummie! Emoticon: Yummie! Emoticon: Yummie! Emoticon: Yummie!

Mr Searcher , you are NOT insulting Sidia. You cannot insult me , because I take your opinion NOT more seriously.
In the beginning I have try to make a dialouge with you . Like Abah Firdaus (?)
Now I am only making fun of your opinion. Emoticon: Smile Emoticon: Red face Emoticon: Red face Emoticon: So funny Emoticon: So funny

You are wrong again mr Searcher.
Emoticon: Bye bye Emoticon: Bye bye Emoticon: Bye bye


Bisa dicek mas . http://omsid.multiply.com/

sidia
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On 17-10-2006 09:48 searching wrote:
Back to the topic, the raid is an attempt of terror, by the group belong to you know who.

Yes , back to the topic.

Its about Dozens of masked people.
I can understand IF you think or assumed that the group is a certain groups .
OK I can follow you , MAYbe you are right.(but they are masked , not a group who left their cards).

My objection is that you make a link and mentioning Allah , Hadith , YHWH etc etc .
From the beginning you are always talking( only ) about Islam and some times nagging , see yr own postings , all of them .But its a free country , a free site. Not an Indonesian site.
I am also a guest here.
I come here to make fun , friends , talking about hotels , girls Emoticon: Blush shame on me , culture , even omong kosong.
Emoticon: Bye bye Emoticon: Bye bye



Bisa dicek mas . http://omsid.multiply.com/

searching
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have many times opened the books (and reading it also )
Only translated books in Indonesian and or dutch , some times in bahasa england , but not to much , maklum my english is kaput)
Even I read the Bible . And Veda .
Yes , for sure .I am reading the Bible and Al Quran ,but not literally .
Because I am living in the 21th century.


It's up to you. But when the Quran said "kill the pagan and slay them where you find them", do you think it's literal or not?
You sound funny. Ok, educate me on how to understand Quran not literally. I will show more educated people in Islam show different opinions.

Mr Searcher , you are NOT insulting Sidia. You cannot insult me , because I take your opinion NOT more seriously.
In the beginning I have try to make a dialouge with you . Like Abah Firdaus (?)
Now I am only making fun of your opinion.


Good then. Trying to undermine what I say. Funny, but I always back up my sayings with verses, while you keep saying "it's not like that, it's not like this", without giving any proof.

Any sane reader will know who really talk based on evidence.

You are wrong again mr Searcher.


Oh, wrong again. too bad.

Its about Dozens of masked people.
I can understand IF you think or assumed that the group is a certain groups .
OK I can follow you , MAYbe you are right.(but they are masked , not a group who left their cards).


Hm. well, glad that we agree on something.

My objection is that you make a link and mentioning Allah , Hadith , YHWH etc etc .
From the beginning you are always talking( only ) about Islam and some times nagging , see yr own postings , all of them .But its a free country , a free site. Not an Indonesian site.
I am also a guest here.


Because I care to see the reason behind all the FPI, the raids, everything here. Omong kosong or not, we must discuss something serious for the future of Indonesia.
If I say this in public, I will be condemned to death. Tibo, etc, was condemned to death.
Islam should be reformed. But I doubt on Islam, since moslems regard Quran as a direct word of Allah, thus unchangeable.


Find out the real face of Islam, read www. faithfreedom.org

sidia
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On 17-10-2006 15:39 searching wrote:

Tibo, etc, was condemned to death.

since moslems regard Quran as a direct word of Allah, thus unchangeable.


Tibo ?? , Tibo , Off Topic again Mr Searcher.

No one can change the words of god.
The same rules bij the Christianity .The Jews and The Hindu.

From dozens Masked People to Qur' an , to Allah , to Tibo and so on. Emoticon: Confused Emoticon: Confused
You lost yr way Mr Searcher , OFF Topic !!!!
Emoticon: Bye bye Emoticon: Bye bye


Bisa dicek mas . http://omsid.multiply.com/

searching
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From dozens Masked People to Qur' an , to Allah , to Tibo and so on.
You lost yr way Mr Searcher , OFF Topic !!!!


So what do you think of the people who love to raid cafes, bar, and become a religious police in Indonesia? Are they good moslems or bad moslems, and what is the criteria for answering whether they are good or bad? Please answer with evidence.


Find out the real face of Islam, read www. faithfreedom.org

sidia
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On 18-10-2006 09:42 searching wrote:
From dozens Masked People to Qur an , to Allah , to Tibo and so on.
You lost yr way Mr Searcher , OFF Topic !!!!


So what do you think of the people who love to raid cafes, bar, and become a religious police in Indonesia? Are they good moslems or bad moslems, and what is the criteria for answering whether they are good or bad? Please answer with evidence.


Pls On Topic Mr Searcher.!!!! ( ngalor , ngidul)

Now you are linking masked dozens people with FPI , Moslem (good ,bad moslems).
Yr own Mask is fallen Mr Searcher.Its to late to denied it.
( Sudah terbuka kedokmu )

Btw , people who break the law and terorised other people are criminals.
With or without masked.

Sidia love Zorro Emoticon: Shiny Emoticon: Party! Emoticon: Party! Emoticon: Party!
Zorrooooo , tagadam , tagadam , tagadam.


Bisa dicek mas . http://omsid.multiply.com/

searching
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Pls On Topic Mr Searcher.!!!! ( ngalor , ngidul)

Now you are linking masked dozens people with FPI , Moslem (good ,bad moslems).
Yr own Mask is fallen Mr Searcher.Its to late to denied it.
( Sudah terbuka kedokmu )

Btw , people who break the law and terorised other people are criminals.
With or without masked.

Sidia love Zorro
Zorrooooo , tagadam , tagadam , tagadam.


Strange answer. I ask you what is your OPINION on the raid on cafes, bars, by moslems. Are they good moslems or bad moslems and give me supporting proof on your OPINION.

Instead of answering, typical a "moderate" moslem, you refuse to answer, because you know you can't answer that they are bad, because in your own religion, the action is supported.

By the way, my question is related, but your answer is not related to the topic. I am not one of the raiders with mask, who love to raid cafes and terror people.



Find out the real face of Islam, read www. faithfreedom.org

sidia
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Wah , I must spell my words to you..

see my posting : " Btw people who break the law and terorised people are criminals ".

A-r-e c-r-i-m-i-n-a-l-s.

Are you acting dumb or are you dumb ? Emoticon: Frustrated . Or a Emoticon: Clown ? Emoticon: Stupid
Maybe my english is no good ? Emoticon: Party! Emoticon: Party! Ayam sori.
And we are talking (omong kosong) abt. dozens masked people , how I can know who they are? Emoticon: Yeah right! Emoticon: Yeah right! .
Are they good moslem or bad moslem. I dont know. Emoticon: Confused Emoticon: Confused
(they are wearing masks).

bye bye mr searcher . Emoticon: Bye bye Emoticon: Bye bye
Sidia still love Zorro. Emoticon: Smile


Bisa dicek mas . http://omsid.multiply.com/

searching
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Wah , I must spell my words to you..

see my posting : " Btw people who break the law and terorised people are criminals ".

A-r-e c-r-i-m-i-n-a-l-s.


My question:

Strange answer. I ask you what is your OPINION on the raid on cafes, bars, by moslems. Are they good moslems or bad moslems and give me supporting proof on your OPINION.


May be you are too dumb, because I asked of your moslem brothers' raid to cafes and bars and your opinion according to Islam, your religion, yet you answer that PEOPLE who break laws and terrorize people are criminals.
Not really connected to the question, I should say.

Are you acting dumb or are you dumb ? . Or a ?
Maybe my english is no good ? Ayam sori.


Or may be you don't want to answer the real question and address the real problem of the raids.

And we are talking (omong kosong) abt. dozens masked people , how I can know who they are? .
Are they good moslem or bad moslem. I dont know.
(they are wearing masks).


The raids to cafes and bars don't happen only this time. And for previous raids, we have already known that people from FPI do that. So, as a moslem, please tell me what do you think of the raids by them according to your religion, Islam.
I hope that you understand this for I make my statement as simply as possible.

bye bye mr searcher .

Where will you go? Good luck.


Find out the real face of Islam, read www. faithfreedom.org

sidia
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On 22-10-2006 08:31 searching wrote:

Wah , I must spell my words to you..

see my posting : " Btw people who break the law and terorised people are criminals ".

A-r-e c-r-i-m-i-n-a-l-s.


My question:

So, as a moslem, please tell me what do you think of the raids by them according to your religion, Islam.
I hope that you understand this for I make my statement as simply as possible.

bye bye mr searcher .



Still dont understand or acting dumb ? Emoticon: Smile Emoticon: Smile
Oke sekali lagi : A-r-e c-r-i-m-i-n-a-l-s

You cant make diff. between Moslim , Islam , reading the books literally or not.
Like are decent people I condemned people who broke the law.
I am sure Emoticon: Puh! that Moslem and Islam like other religions are against people who breaking law.
Ayam sorry , you are now nagging again. The same and dumb question.
You little Emoticon: Devil Emoticon: Smile Emoticon: Smile
Emoticon: Bye bye Emoticon: Bye bye Mister Searcher.


Bisa dicek mas . http://omsid.multiply.com/

marcel70
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Ben het meer eens met search.

Maar het is ook meer off topic

Hoe staat het met de topic
Masked man raid cafe and rumah makan.
Dat is onderdrukking ups I did it again Emoticon: Blush Emoticon: Blush Emoticon: Blush Emoticon: Bye bye Emoticon: Bye bye


Becik ketitik olo Ketoro

marcel70
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Finaly Sidia

More condem on this forum about criminals like that

But now still opently in indonesia media
That happend not enough Emoticon: Angry Emoticon: Angry


Becik ketitik olo Ketoro

Mas Rob
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Searching,

I think it is not very appropiate to make judgements about good and bad Muslims. Muslims in Indonesia are very serious about their faith, even if they don't pray five times a day or go to a mosque. See what happens if you tell an Islamic Indonesian who has not studied the Qur'an or Hadits that he is not a good Muslim. You'd better have a good health insurance.

The Quran states that there is no compulsion in religion. If you perform your religious duties, you need to do it out of free will, not because it is compulsory. Moslims believe that it is not for humans to measure up each other's relationship with God. That is a prerogative of the Supreme Being.

Islam has touched upon many peoples and cultures in a history of many centuries. It is not surprising that Islam has never been a religion set in stone. It has an ability to adapt to different circumstances. And why should it not be so.

Moslims believe God is beyond our understanding. We can only try to be good human beings. Not only studying the Quran and Hadits, but also reflection on our behaviour in daily life is important. Some will take the mystical path. Moslims who claim to represent the right strain of Islam or claim to do God's will take the risk of committing a very grave sin.

Many western critics share the same clear cut view of Isam with radical Muslims. This view denies the ability of Islam to adapt to human rights and to democracy and progress. It leaves out Islam's rich variety of ideas and appearances. Who can only see the FPI and radicals as Amrozi in Indonesia, denies the existence of all muslims who fight for human rights and democracy on basis of their belief.

This kind of attitude will ultimately lead tot marginalisation of those muslims, who are caught between the rock and the hardplate of Islamic radicals and Western critics who cannot see beyond their self-created spectres. 'Clash of cultures' could be a very harmful self-fulfilling prophesy indeed.

Salam
Rob









marcel70
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Beste Rob
In Prinicipe heb je gelijk, maar met deze zin is een man als basir het niet eens


Moslims believe that it is not for humans to measure up each other's relationship with God. That is a prerogative of the Supreme Being.

I realy hope people as FBI and Basir wil be lead to the way of marginalistion


Becik ketitik olo Ketoro

sidia
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On 26-10-2006 12:39 marcel70 wrote:
Beste Rob

I realy hope people as FBI and Basir wil be lead to the way of marginalistion

Who is Basir ?
Not my idol or friend.

FBI ? = not FPI ?


Bisa dicek mas . http://omsid.multiply.com/

marcel70
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Sida
ja FPI en basir weet je wel toh
Indonesia is een taaltje je schrijft zoals je het zegt Emoticon: Laugh out loud Emoticon: Laugh out loud


Becik ketitik olo Ketoro

Yogya-Bali
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Enige jaren had Stephanie Vaassen van de NOS ook al zo'n artikel over moslim-haat tegen homo's in Yogyakarta. Eeen groep fanatieke moslims had een homo-cafe overvallen en kort en klein geslagen.
De dame was zich er echter niet van bewust dat het hier ging om een afrekening in het criminele (preman) circuit. De eigenaar van de homobar had vele schulden die hij weigerde te betalen. Dus komen op een gegeven moment de debt-collectors langs met een groepje mensen die "duidelijk" de persoon zullen maken dat hij moet betalen. Dit gebeurde door premans die ook vaak voor de PPP als ordedienst fungeerden (dit soort ordediensten zijn gewoon opkoopbaar door een ieder die ze ergens voor nodig heeft).

Maar een dergelijk verhaal verkoopt niet lekker in NL, dus werd het een moslim-raid op een homobar; oftewel homohaat van extremistische moslims.
Tjaja, goed onderzoek doen laat nogal eens te wensen over in de journalistiek (en de wetenschap, zoals antropologie -> zie mijn reactie op item Jaloezie).




Yogya-Bali
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Sorry, have to do in english.
The whole raid had nothing to do with islam. I haven't red this topic yet but already know what it is about.
As usual I wasn't there when it happened but in Lombok (seems to be always on the wrong spot _ or just the right spot - when something happens in my hometown). Yesterday I went to the victims (bars) of this raid and they told me that the perpetrators had quite a few alcoholic drinks before they suddenly slammed everything and shouted that it was intolerable to be open as a bar during the Ramadhan and the way foreigners didn't respect the Ramadhan; this all with a drunken voice.
It seems that the perpetrators looked more like a militaryman (shortcut hair and trained body) than like beardy, turban wearing, short moslim pants.
Food for thought?




Yogya-Bali
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Again sorry, my other reaction I have also to translate first:

A few years ago a Dutch journalist of the NOS had produced an article about moslim hatred against homosexuals in Yogyakarta. A group of moslim-fanatics had beated up customers and destroyed a gay-bar.
This lady wasn't aware of the fact that it was a revenge in the criminal circuit (preman). The owner of the bar had a lot of debts he refused to pay back. So at a certain moment the debt-collectors came along with a group of gangmembers to make this owner clear that he had to apy or otherwise ....
This raid took place by a paramilitary group who also are often used by the moslim political party PPP (these paramilitary groups are for hire for anybody who needs their "service" Emoticon: Wink .

But a story like that doesn't sell that well in the Netherlands, so it became a moslim-raid on a gay-bar: in other words: hatred against gays by extremist moslims.
Well, good survey isn't always the strongest point in journalism (and social science like anthropology -> read my reaction on the item about Jealousy amongst Indonesians: Dutch language)




Jeroen
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Thanks for translating the messages into English. I have removed the Dutch ones. Emoticon: Smile




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