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ramaro
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I start this new thread "STRANGE STORIES: FROM INDONESIA TO MADAGASCAR" for English speaking persons interested in researching and learning about the mass migration of Indonesians to the Indian Ocean island of Madagascar.

First, I believe this story to be true because I learnt that the Malagasy language in Madagascar is an Austro-Polynesian language related to Malay and Manjaan.

The most earlier recorded travels from Indonesia to Africa seem to be between 200 BC and 800 AD, when boats from Borobudur, Java travelled to West Africa and east Africa for trade. Does anyone have some reference sources about these travels?



ramaro
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Here is the article from which I learnt about this story. It is rather old:

Mon 18 Aug 2003
Temple reliefs lead to epic trip
MARIANNE KEARNEY IN JAKARTA
THEY were the first seafarers to cross the oceans in the search of trade, yet little is known of the Indonesian expeditions to Madagascar and eastern Africa.
Now a Scots captain is to sail a replica of an eighth-century ship, based on designs found on stone carvings, on a voyage that will take four months.
The Borobudur, named after the temple where the carvings were found, set sail from Jakarta at the weekend.
The expedition is the passion of Philip Beale, a London fund manager, who
20 years ago stumbled across the beautifully carved stone reliefs of simple outrigger boats on the eighth-century Buddhist temple Borobudur in Java. He wondered whether the boats were the same ones that had transported Indonesian explorers to Madagascar.
Now, in an attempt to answer that question, 42-year-old Mr Beale has assembled a 15-strong international group of crew, marine archeologists and a Scots skipper, Alan Campbell, and built a replica of the Borobudur reliefs.
Mr Beale and Nick Burningham, a British marine archeologist who supervised the boat’s construction, believe the reliefs depict what was a common trip to Madagascar and eastern Africa for Indonesian seafarers.
"Long before Europe was doing any ocean sailing, when nobody was doing back and forth trips of 3,000 to 4,000 kilometres, Indonesians were far and away the first global traders, way back before the Portuguese, the Arabs or Chinese," said Mr Beale.
Madagascar’s Asian-looking inhabitants, plus the fact that the language spoken by both black and Asian inhabitants of Madagascar is the same as that spoken on Indonesian Borneo, have led historians to believe that the island was first colonised by Indonesians, who then sailed to eastern Africa and began exporting Asian rice, bananas, yams and betel nut.
Mr Beale suspected these ancient traders might have even made it as far as Ghana in west Africa, and the new voyage will prove whether this was possible, with plans to sail around the tip of South Africa and up the western side of the continent.
Mr Beale further pointed out that the Chinese did not reach the Indian Ocean until the tenth century and while Arabs did it shortly after, the Portuguese did not sail round the cape of Africa until the late 15th century.
Rebuilding one of the boats that made this epic voyage has not been straightforward, with the team having no models or drawings, only the reliefs, on which to base the construction.
And unlike some of the replica European tall ships which have plied these difficult routes, this compact little boat does not necessarily look capable of sailing across the Indian Ocean and withstanding the notorious winds around the Cape of Good Hope.
At 20 metres long and built - without a nail - of various hardwood timbers, bamboo, rope riggings and koroco, a type of traditional sailcloth, the replica looks fragile compared to European sailing ships. In light winds, the crew might be forced to row it, possibly for several days at a time.
However, amid all the paraphernalia of the ancient world there are a few modern amenities, such as liferafts, a GPS and satellite equipment for navigating, as well as solar-powered computers to allow the captain to download the latest weather maps from the internet.
Mr Campbell, 59, is a veteran of such recreated sailing trips, having made about a dozen of them in the past three decades, but he knows there is always a certain unpredictability about them.
"We should get the south-east trade winds as far as the Seychelles, but we can’t predict until we clear land what the winds will do. So I guess we’ll just deal with it when we get there," he said.
If the winds are favourable around the African cape, they should reach western Africa by late December or early January.
Mr Campbell, a Glaswegian who has lived in Australia since the 1960s, discovered this love for such historical voyages and began to pick up sailing skills after travelling as a passenger on Eye of the Wind, a riveted iron 1900s ship, in the 1970s.
"I fell in love with the ship, I fell in love with the lifestyle and that was it," he said. Now he intersperses his sailing trips with stints lecturing at the Australian Maritime College in Launceston, Tasmania.
Despite expressing doubts before departure about the expedition’s state of readiness ("I can’t see how this is all going to come together" Emoticon: Wink Mr Campbell got the boat under way on schedule, confirming the truth of his additional observation that "I always say that before I take off on a trip like this and then magically at the last minute it all comes together".
Mr Burningham, who has acted as an adviser for other famous recreated ships such as the 16th-century Dutch vessel Duyfken, which sailed from Sydney to Amsterdam two years ago, is not so certain that the boat in its current form will make it as far as Madagascar.
One question is how the bamboo outriggers, which appear to be there to stabilise the boat but do not actually function that way, will behave in strong winds.
"They were on the Borobudur reliefs but what they’ll do in a storm, I just don’t know," he said. "I think it might sail better without them."
But having made short trips in the craft, Mr Burningham is pleased with its progress. "She slips through the water beautifully," he said. But he was "not surprised", given the skills of its builders on Pagerungan Kecil, one of the Kangean islands,70 kilometres north of Bali. This article: http://thescotsman.scotsman.co(...)dex.cfm?id=905592003


And, the website of the expedition is here: http://www.borobudurshipexpedi(...)com/leg02-report.htm






sidia
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Strange Stories ?

Maybe for some western people .
The Indonesian have several seafaring kingdoms like Majapahit , Srivijaya and dont forget the Buginese people.
They have an old song : Nenek Moyangku Orang Pelaut.
(Our ancestors are sailors)
The first long journey of an European Nation (Portugal) began at late 15th century(1498).



Bisa dicek mas . http://omsid.multiply.com/

ramaro
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People in Madagascar are not sure if their Indonesian ancestors came in one or two batches of major migration fleets or in piece meals of shipwrecked sailors.

Does anyone know of any recorded major migrations from Sumatra, Java, or Kalimantan to Madagascar?

I have researched this story with some Madagascar scholars at their National Academy of History and the National Library of France, to no avail. Madagascar was “discovered by the French” since 1600 and became a French colony from 1896 to 1960.

What Indonesian historical events could have triggered a relatively important migration to Madagascar between 200 B.C. and 800 A.D.?

I am attempting to gather information about possible major catastrophes such as any major earthquakes, wars, epidemics, or volcanic eruptions similar to the Kratatoa volcanic eruption of 1883, which could have pushed the Indonesian ancestors of the Madagascans to migrate massively.




ramaro
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There is a story in Madagascar that about 1300 A.D., a large group of asian looking immigrants came in unexpectedly. They were not the usual Arabic seafarers used to deal with the Island at that time. The local oral history recorded that these people declared their original homeland to be today's Indonesia.

The lore goes on to say that the members of this group started almost immediatly to climb towards the Highlands of the Island. They were led by someone called Tomara, whom they called Andria Tomara. Does anyone know of any TOMARA clan, which could have been chased away from any of today's Indonesian islands at about the time of this story (~ 1300 A.D.)?

Here is a piece of information about the Tomara: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tomara



ramaro
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Few questions of vocabulary:

(1) In the Malagasy language of 1896, the word for nobility is ANDRIAN (A) or RANDRIAN(A) -- sometimes the final A is pronounced and at other times it is mute. In the older Malagasy text (~ prior to 1500), the same word was said DIEN, ADIEN, and RADIEN as recorded by Arab and European travelers. Would anyone tell me which words would be the equivalent of the above in some of the Indonesian languages /dialects?
(2) Another Malagasy word is MERIN(A) with the terminal A mute. It is the name of an ancient kingdom. Again, would anyone tell me which words would be the equivalent of MERIN or MERINA in some of the Indonesian languages /dialects?

I wonder if each change of "darma" in Indonesia, such as from Buddhism to Hinduism, and from Hinduism to the advent of Islam, did not result in important emmigration from Indonesian Islands to Madagascar. Does anyone know about stories validating this theory?

I would appreciate any answer to these questions, and my previous questions , which went unanswered. Thank you very much!




AnisJ
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We had this 'old' topic ....... by any chance familiar with the initiator ????
I presume ......... forum.indahnesia.com/topic/405(...)nesia_and_africa.php

Greetz,

AnisJ.


'Ahu kura ahia, mansia nia'

ramaro
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Greetings AnisJ:

Thank you for the link above. I have read Robert's book. My approach is different. Roberts investigates the migrations of Indonesians to Africa in general: hence the references by both of us with the Borobudur expedition.

I am focused at the Indonesian migrations to Madagascar only (no other parts of Africa). I think that the Borobudur case is just one of many "routes" of Indonesian migrations to Madagascar. But I have not proved that statement.

The study of Dr Matthew Hurles, of the Wellcome Trust Sanger Institute, and other similar Y DNA and mt DNA researches proved the migration theory to be 100% true. But there are more:

(1) the admixture of Indonesian and African covers a large spectrum in Madagascar whereas a seemingly original groups exist at both extremes; among the most Indonesian groups, there some noticeable cultural variations;
I do not know enough of the Indonesian culture to differentiate the originations of these Madagascar Indonesian looking variations.

(2) the local lore attests of several batches of migrants from Indonesia in general but their precise locations, cultures, and time lines are blurred. Indonesia is a modern nation of 230 millions inhabitants with 15,000 islands, and 400 languages. The scholars references to Malay and Manjaan derivations are rather vague. Malay could be understood as encompassing bahasa melayu and bahasa indahnesia, as a synonym of Austro-Polynesian dialect. Manjaan is more precise but the Manjaan speakers may have drifted from Sumatra and Java to the area of Nusi Telo over 2,000 years. In Inonesia proper, several population movements have taken place over millennia.




ramaro
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Besides the focus on Indonesia Madagascar migration (as opposed to Indonesia Africa in general), I am also focused on historical events prior to 1617 and the Java War. Population movements into Madagascar after this approximate period appear to be well documented by the Portuguese sailors, the Arab slave traders, the VOC of the Dutch, and the French since 1645.

The reference of the original about the aforementioned report is:
The dual origin of the malagasy in island southeast Asia and East Africa: evidence from maternal and paternal lineages.
Hurles ME, Sykes BC, Jobling MA, Forster P
Am J Hum Genet. 2005;76;894-901.

Here is a commentated summary written by several participating researchers:
The cryptic past of Madagascar
Human inhabitants of Madagascar are genetically unique
Half of the genetic lineages of human inhabitants of Madagascar come from 4500 miles away in Borneo, while the other half derive from East Africa, according to a study published in May by a UK team.
The island of Madagascar, the largest in the Indian Ocean, lies some 250 miles (400 km) from Africa and 4000 miles (6400 km) from Indonesia. Its isolation means that most of its mammals, half of its birds, and most of its plants exist nowhere else on earth. The new findings, published in the American Journal of Human Genetics, show that the human inhabitants of Madagascar are similarly unique - amazingly, half of their genetic lineages derive from settlers from the region of Borneo, with the other half from East Africa. Archaeological evidence suggests that this settlement was as recent as 1500 years ago - about the time the Saxons invaded Britain.
"The origins of the language spoken in Madagascar, Malagasy, suggested Indonesian connections, because its closest relative is the Maanyan language, spoken in southern Borneo," said Dr Matthew Hurles, of the Wellcome Trust Sanger Institute. "For the first time, we have been able to assign every genetic lineage in the Malagasy population to a likely geographic origin with a high degree of confidence."
"Malagasy peoples are a roughly 50:50 mix of two ancestral groups: Indonesians and East Africans. It is important to realise that these lineages have intermingled over intervening centuries since settlement, so modern Malagasy have ancestry in both Indonesia and Africa."
The team, from Cambridge, Oxford and Leicester, used two types of DNA marker to study DNA diversity: Y chromosomes, inherited only through males, and mitochondrial DNA, inherited only through females. They tested how similar the Malagasy were to populations around the Indian Ocean. The set of non-African Y chromosomes found in the Malagasy was much more similar to the set of lineages found in Borneo than in any other population, which demonstrates striking agreement between the genetic and linguistic evidence. Similarly, a 'Centre of Gravity' was estimated for every mitochondrial DNA to suggest a likely geographical origin for each. This entails calculating a geographical average of the locations of the best matches within a large database of mitochondrial lineages from around the world.
"The Centres of Gravity fell in the islands of southeast Asia or in sub-Saharan Africa," explained Dr Peter Forster, from the McDonald Institute for Archaeological Research, University of Cambridge, one of the co-authors. "The evidence from these two independent bits of DNA supports the linguistic evidence in suggesting that a migrating population made their way 4500 miles across the Indian Ocean from Borneo."
The striking mix suggests that there was substantial migration of people from southeast Asia about 2000-1500 years ago - a mirror image of the migrations from that region into the Pacific, to Micronesia and Polynesia, that had occurred about 1000 years earlier. However, unlike the privations suffered by those eastward travellers, the data suggests the early Malagasy population survived the voyage well, because more genetic variation is found in them than is found in the islands of Polynesia. 'Bottlenecks' in evolutionary history, where the population is dramatically reduced in number, are a common cause of reduced genetic variation.
Even though the Africa coast is only one-twentieth of the distance to Indonesia, it appears that migrations from Africa may have been more limited, as less of the diversity seen in the source population has survived in Madagascar.
But why, if the population is a 50:50 mix, is the language almost exclusively derived from Indonesia?
"It is a very interesting question, for which we have as yet no certain answer, as to how the African contribution to Malagasy culture, evident in biology and in aspects of economic and material culture, was so largely erased in the realm of language," commented Professor Robert Dewar, of The McDonald Institute for Archaeological Research, University of Cambridge. "This research highlights the differing, and complementary, contributions of biology and linguistics to the understanding of prehistory."
The population structure in Madagascar is a fascinating snapshot of human history and a testament to the remarkable abilities of early populations to undertake migrations across vast reaches of ocean. It may also be important today for cutting edge medical science.
"There has recently been dramatic progress in the development of experimental and statistical methods appropriate for gene mapping in admixed populations," said David Goldstein, Wolfson Professor of Genetics, University College London. "To succeed, however, these methods depend on populations with well defined historical admixtures. This work shows provides compelling evidence that the Malagasy are such a population, and again shows the value of careful study of human population structure."
Our human history is a rich mix of peoples and their movement, of success and failure. Madagascar holds an enriching tale of the ability of humans to survive and to reach new lands.



ramaro
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Here is a link to a full text of the article I mentioned above:

(The dual origin of the malagasy in island southeast Asia and East Africa: evidence from maternal and paternal lineages.
Hurles ME, Sykes BC, Jobling MA, Forster P
Am J Hum Genet. 2005;76;894-901.)
http://www.pubmedcentral.gov/a(...)ed&pubmedid=15793703



kupang
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L.S;

Most of the Malagasy people come from Indonesia.Jsut look at their faces,hair,
names of f.i. presidents.The Indonesia influenced people more to the E.Of course also African people from African continent.
It is just true.Most of them come from the Buginese area of Sulawesi.Until not so long ago there were still contacts between the going - and staying people.
I think/read somewhere some time ago.I even met a Malagasy scholar,who made his researches at Indonesia institute KITLV in Leiden/Holland.
By the way:I like this website,forum and the people using it very much.I have visted forums of Indonesia people and in Indonesia.To much shouting there often.Sorry.
Bye:
DP Tick gRMK/Pusaka.


/

javanicus
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Few questions of vocabulary:

(1) In the Malagasy language of 1896, the word for nobility is ANDRIAN (A) or RANDRIAN(A) -- sometimes the final A is pronounced and at other times it is mute. In the older Malagasy text (~ prior to 1500), the same word was said DIEN, ADIEN, and RADIEN as recorded by Arab and European travelers. Would anyone tell me which words would be the equivalent of the above in some of the Indonesian languages /dialects?
(2) Another Malagasy word is MERIN(A) with the terminal A mute. It is the name of an ancient kingdom. Again, would anyone tell me which words would be the equivalent of MERIN or MERINA in some of the Indonesian languages /dialects?

I wonder if each change of "darma" in Indonesia, such as from Buddhism to Hinduism, and from Hinduism to the advent of Islam, did not result in important emmigration from Indonesian Islands to Madagascar. Does anyone know about stories validating this theory?

Sorry for the very very very long time. I've just stumbled upon this group and hope to give appropriate answers. However, by the time I write this answer I hope you have found ones from other sources.
(1) I was surprised when you mentioned RADIEN as a title of high status in Madagascar. The most exact counterpart in Javanese is RADEN, a title of high rank or nobility, for example Raden Ajeng Kartini, Raden Saleh, etc. I am not sure if it has existed since the era of Indonesian Hindu-Buddhist kingdoms but noble Javanese will often have the title RADEN both for men and women.
(2) Merina is perhaps the name designed by the ethnic group itself or by outsiders. In Indonesia I have no familiarity with the term Merina or Merin as well. Remember, your ancestors came from South Borneo (Ma'anyan ethic group in Barito) so perhaps Merina is from Ma'anyan. Just my guessing, however.

The answer of the last question, the Indonesian migration to Madagascar was perhaps accelerated by the so-called CINNAMON route during the Srivijaya Kingdom golden days in Sumatra from 6th-13th century. Cinnamon is a spice praised by the Roman and Europeans in general. Even the name is speculated to be derived from Indonesian "kayu manis". India was not the producing home at that time so they imported it from Indonesia and Indonesian people themselves traded Cinnamon as far as Ghana, Africa. In conclusion, the migration of Indonesian people may have been related to trade and spices as the Moluccas in Indonesia have been dubbed the Spice Islands. Other Indonesian products famous in international world in ancient time were Barus in Sumatra (for camphor) which suspiciously gives the Latin term camphora from "kapur barus" and indigenous spices such nutmeg and clove.

Don't you know that some scholars proposed that Columbus did not sail to India in search of spices? Instead, what he meant INDIA at that time was Indonesia (the Moluccas for exact) since Arab scholars always attributed India to include Indonesia as well. They hardly distinguished the two modern countries which sometimes resulted in confusion for modern readers. Therefore, if the records mentioned India mainland, it must have meant INDIA and if it called Isles of India (as in Marco Polo's account), then it must have been Indonesian archipelago.



guna2
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On 26-04-2014 11:02 javanicus wrote: The answer of the last question, the Indonesian migration to Madagascar was perhaps accelerated by the so-called CINNAMON route during the Srivijaya Kingdom golden days in Sumatra from 6th-13th century. Cinnamon is a spice praised by the Roman and Europeans in general.

Are you sure? As far as I know, the Dutch introduced cinnamon production in Indonesia, in the 18th century. http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kaneel (in Dutch) Before those days, Ceylon was said to have the monopoly. When the Dutch were kicked out of Sri Lanka by the British, they had to find another way to be able trade cinnamon, hence Indonesia. The English Wiki entry tells another story - your story - but I find it rather inconsistent. Unless the early trade only involved "wild" (as opposed to "cultivated" Emoticon: Wink cinnamon.



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On 26-04-2014 11:02 javanicus wrote:
Few questions of vocabulary:

(1) In the Malagasy language of 1896, the word for nobility is ANDRIAN (A) or RANDRIAN(A) -- sometimes the final A is pronounced and at other times it is mute. In the older Malagasy text (~ prior to 1500), the same word was said DIEN, ADIEN, and RADIEN as recorded by Arab and European travelers. Would anyone tell me which words would be the equivalent of the above in some of the Indonesian languages /dialects?

Maybe : Nden , Aden .
In the good old day(tempo doeloe) they call a young man from good family Den or Aden .
Or Den Anom ( Anom means young , maybe you can translated it as Young Master .

Raden came from Old Javanese H adyan with prefix(?) Ra .
In Dutch Heer" or "Vrouwe"
" Emoticon: Cry Source : Encyclopapaedie Nederlandsch-Indie 1899 ?)


(2) Another Malagasy word is MERIN(A) with the terminal A mute. It is the name of an ancient kingdom. Again, would anyone tell me which words would be the equivalent of MERIN or MERINA in some of the Indonesian languages /dialects?

I wonder if each change of "darma" in Indonesia, such as from Buddhism to Hinduism, and from Hinduism to the advent of Islam, did not result in important emmigration from Indonesian Islands to Madagascar.
Only at East Java, the Hindu nobility from Majapahit were moving to island Bali.

Sorry for the very very very long time. I've just stumbled upon this group and hope to give appropriate answers. However, by the time I write this answer I hope you have found ones from other sources.
(1) I am not sure if it has existed since the era of Indonesian Hindu-Buddhist kingdoms but noble Javanese will often have the title RADEN both for men and women.

The childeren of a ruling king from Java( West-Middle-East Java) besides the Raden( men) or Raden Adjeng ( not yet married women ) or Raden Ajoe ( married) .

Children of not ruling kings have only Raden title.

The Sundanese nobility from not a ruling king from West Java have only Raden title(men or women) .





bisa dicek of makemyday .

guna2
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Borrowing from Javanese
Another lexical donor language, Javanese, is less important a source than Malay. Nevertheless, its legacy in Malagasy does include the honorific prefix ra-, which in Madagascar also occurs in many proper names, cf. Old Javanese rānak (< ra- + anak) ‘child’, rāma ‘father (< ra- + ama ‘father’, modern Javanese råmå ‘Roman Catholic priest’), rahadyan ‘Lord, Master’ (modern Javanese raden, < ra- + hadi + -an < P(W)MP *qazi ‘ruler’), etc.; Malagasy rafotsi ‘term of address for old lady’ (< ra- + fotsi ‘white’); Comoro Malagasy ravinantu ‘child-in-law’ (< ra- + vinantu < Proto Austronesian *b-in- antu ‘child-in-law’); Ranavalona ‘(name of a series of Malagasy 19th century queens), Rantoandro, Rajaonarimanana, Razafintsalama (Malagasy last names).
As a category, Javanese loans can be difficult to spot, and it is often not possible to establish with certainty that Javanese is indeed their source language.

From:
The Indonesian migrations to Madagascar: making sense of the multidisciplinary evidence
Alexander Adelaar
Melbourne Institute of Asian Languages and Societies The University of Melbourne (year?)

I haven't read the study yet, so I'd better shut up, but I have my doubts about it.



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Frederik de Houtman (brother of Cornelis de Houtman , Dutch Compagnie van Verre)

His book : Spraeck ende woordboeck inde Maleysche ende Madagaskarsche talen, met vele Arabische ende Turcsche woorden.


bisa dicek of makemyday .


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