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AnisJ
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If we look at the way our daily life consists of, it is much based on the very idea of 'war against terror' ......... by their thinking in the west it is obvious that the 'framework' is western .......
For instance : the numbers of people that are killed in 'the Twin Towers' and the 'Bali Bombing' do not match the millions that have been killed during the 'Comunist Cleansing' in the Suharto era ...., but Americans acted as if millions of Americans had been killed .......
"What is the difference of the 'Twin Tower' killings/ 'Bali bombings' and the millions during the Suharto regime ???"
"Do not misunderstand me, every 'person killed' is one too many, to my believe; but it looks like the 'western killings' are for the 'West' more precious, as it seems; is it the difference of color ....... western values ...... are they shocked (especially Americans) that terrorists using 'low tech' are able to attack the 'advanced American society of 'western values' ......."
I was inspired by this idea; to tackle it, when I was informed by the news about the death of Pramuja Anantatur, he is the one that had always backed the idea of investigate the 'Communist killings during the Suharto regime' ......


'Ahu kura ahia, mansia nia'

Jeroen
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Removed some tags in the title to make it more easy to read. Emoticon: Smile



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On 11-05-2006 16:26 Jeroen wrote:
Removed some tags in the title to make it more easy to read. Emoticon: Smile


Can you do the same with the text....( message ),,,,-.....::,,,(...' ''' Emoticon: Puh! ....Just joking back to the point.


Live life to the max.......

Jeroen
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On 11-05-2006 22:24 Martin-Solo. wrote:

...


Can you do the same with the text....( message ),,,,-.....::,,,(... Emoticon: Puh! ....Just joking back to the point.


Too hard to read already, I'm not going to try Emoticon: Nice



pretbek
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I suppose mcuh of this way of thinking is also due to our media. If you make big headlines of a story, it will be discussed. If it's discussed, more people will have feelings with it.
Though not Indonesian, I thought it very typical that for many years (before the 2nd war in Irak) there was a small article in the dutch newspaper once a year about Irak. Like: "last year in Irak 15 british helicopters have bombarded and 12 american bombings took place." Perhaps the article was 2 lines more, but still very small. (this line above is made up, actual numbers were probably higher, surely not smaller).
I don't think I want to know how many Irakish and Palestinian people have been killed due to direct or indirect (providing other armies) American and European politics.
I got into a big argument with friends when after the twin towers attack I said I wasn't very surprised. Don't get me wrong, I think the attack is not a right thing. But still I think we are very good at making our own people mad at unjustice done to us, while we are not, or not good, informed about the wrong actions in other countries that our own countries are responsible for.
I think it's only logical that when we surpress, bomb and humiliate other countries there will be a time when somebody strikes back. And then surprise falls over the most of us. We are used to thinking that we can play boss everywhere. We're also used to the fact that wars will allways happen, but not in our own countries or to our own people!
And for the killing done in other countries by their own regimes, I guess they are to far away from home to really care about them. People (I'm also guilty) care more about things that they are more related to.
Hope this text is clear, it's difficult to explain my opion in a small text. I hope it will start some discussions!




AnisJ
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'Pretbek' yth.,

I am glad that you have understood much of the intention(s) I had with my topic .......


'Ahu kura ahia, mansia nia'

pretbek
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understand?! It sometimes frustrates me so much that it distractes me of the daily work I should do... ..it's soo nice to only know one truth! Emoticon: Nooo Emoticon: Frustrated



hobo1
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AnisJ

You are talking about the mystery of what prompts a human to kill another human because of revenge, perceived mistreatment, or any number or reason humans go to war. We have seen that the number of people initially killed rarely has any relationship to the number of people killed in the name of retaliation.

Think back about Indonesia, when it consisted of tribes and kingdoms. Two groups of people who would be considered neighbors today, can pick up a knife or spear and go kill men, women and children on the other side of the mountain.

Every body has a rally cry: "For God and Country", or whatever. Anger is irrational - killing for a cause is an international response. The West just happens to have bigger weapons today. But a look at history shows war, and all its horrors, has always been justified because we are "fighting for the cause".

In my opinion, the only thing that is going to stop this crazy behavior is when an international mechanism is put in place for resolving problems in something like an international court of arbitration. That doesn't look likely soon, so I guess we are stuck with our awful instincts.


Hideaway Bungalow in Kuta Lombok - check my homepage

AnisJ
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On 13-05-2006 17:17 hobo1 wrote:
AnisJ

You are talking about the mystery of what prompts a human to kill another human because of revenge, perceived mistreatment, or any number or reason humans go to war. We have seen that the number of people initially killed rarely has any relationship to the number of people killed in the name of retaliation.

Think back about Indonesia, when it consisted of tribes and kingdoms. Two groups of people who would be considered neighbors today, can pick up a knife or spear and go kill men, women and children on the other side of the mountain.

Every body has a rally cry: "For God and Country", or whatever. Anger is irrational - killing for a cause is an international response. The West just happens to have bigger weapons today. But a look at history shows war, and all its horrors, has always been justified because we are "fighting for the cause".

In my opinion, the only thing that is going to stop this crazy behavior is when an international mechanism is put in place for resolving problems in something like an international court of arbitration. That doesnt look likely soon, so I guess we are stuck with our awful instincts.


The trouble with your arguments is that most problems are not that easy,
because 'lots of people and groups, nowadays have their own interests' ......


'Ahu kura ahia, mansia nia'

Agung
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Hi AnisJ,
I don't think this has something to do with "western" thinking. I think the impact of people being killed depends on the fact how much people are able to imagine that it have happened to themselves.

For western people it's very easy to imagine that they were visiting the twin towers or were visiting Kuta Bali at the wrong time, so this makes disasters like that very threatening.

Why did the tsunami have a great impact on western public opinion? Not because Aceh. No, only because some tourist resorts in Thailand was hit.

I think the same applies for eastern, southern people or whomever.

If you compare western people with other areas of the world towards their openness towards what happens in the world, then I must say that western people have a very open mind, even if it is not 100% perfect.

People in other parts, especially the Middle East could take a good example from us, when it comes to having an open mind.

(By the way, a few areas in the world have similar openness like the west. Counties like Japan, S-Korea, Taiwan etc. Perhaps we shouldn’t speak of western countries)




Agung
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On 12-05-2006 14:23 pretbek wrote:
......We are used to thinking that we can play boss everywhere......
Hi Pretbek,
Do you have any idea what would happen if we would really play the boss everywhere?

If you have any feeling for historic proportions then you would agree with me that there has never been a time in which the powers of this world bear in mind the needs of the weak.

Don't think I write the current powers of this world are "holy", but just remember that up to little more than halve a century ago the powers of this world just would take what they like from the weak and, if needed, just kill them.

Do you think counties like Iran will treat us just as good as we treat them, if they would become the greatest power of this world?



pretbek
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Hi Agung,
First, though I like my ethic standards, I don't really think that any country would treat others good when they become the greatest power in the world. The same accounts for Iran, especcialy with their current leader.
Still I do think that it's typical for western countries to always try to intervene in other countries, sometimes well meant, sometimes bad. In this, we (Europe & the USA (former Europeans)), try to oblige or strongly persuade our filosophy and views of the world to other people. This used to be religion mostly, nowadays democracy is our holy temple. (Accept when we don't like the party that's chosen in a democratic way, but that's another story huh)
To answer your questions, I don't think Iran would treat other countries good. Perhaps they will also try to invade some surrounding countries if they get the chance. I also think that our media is better than in many other countries, with more freedom for journalists. But I do think that many other countries would bother other countries less than the western countries do. Like China, it's a big nation with much power. It has problems with surrounding countries, but it does not spread its own ideas all over the world.
And most of all, I do think that we should be carefull with the opinions that we build from the information we get. Even though I think our journalists have more freedom I'm quite sure that we are being manipulated by our own system.
Even though other countries will not always be better, I think it's best to look at our own doings first. I'm quite convinced that western countries bother(ed) other countries soo much that we provoke others to show their worst side to us. Playing boss in other countries bears responibilities also, I don't think we carry them too well, no matter what kind of countries the others are...





Agung
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Hi Pretbek,
I agree with you that western countries have the habit of trying to influence other countries. Although e.g. Russia has also done quite a lot to influence other countries in the last century. In the time China really believed in communism they also did so work trying to convince others, but that's all history now.

A country doing a very bad job in spreading their thinking is Saudi Arabia. They'll sponsor anything, all over the world, as long as they can spread their way of thinking.

I agree that, where ever you are, the media will be to some extend be controlled by the government, so be careful what to believe, but when a government does its best to cut off information coming from other countries, like China closing part of the internet for its people, then you should really start worrying.

How easy you can get information and opinions from all other countries is a good measurement of the amount of freedom you have.

By the way, I don't think we in Holland live in complete freedom, like they want us to believe so much. No, on a scale from 0-100% we would maybe have 70% freedom, which is not bad compared to the rest of the world, but don't fool yourself in thinking that you live in a 100% free country. That’s Utopia!



pretbek
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Hey Agung,
No comments on this! I also think Holland is politicly, even though it's getting worse at the moment, still one of the best countries to live in. I just get a bit annoyed sometimes because people have strong opinions about, for instance, arabic countries. Even though the opions sometimes have a point, I always remember myself that we give them enough reasons to hate us. So I think looking at ourselves is always the best. We still have so much to learn in our intercontinental politics. By not spreading an united european opinion we'll stay the USA helping continent. When we critizise other countries USA helps us to put up the pressure. When we critisize the USA, Europe tends to fall apart and do nothing. I think this gives us such a bad name in non western countries. Of course, the worst people in other countries will use this in the wrong way (like in Saudi-Arabia or Syria (?Syrië)). But is an instrument we give them. The 'normal man' in those countries are not only manipulated by their own government, they also have the right to not like the western society to my opinion...
Though I don't like the worlds politics to much, relatively speaking countries like Holland, Sweden, Germany and (though perhaps not too long anymore) also Denmark are doin' quite allright I guess. But I never forget our welfare is partly due to the nice products we got from other countries, starting with the VOC period. I aint too proude of that..



Agung
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Hi Pretbek,
the last few days have not been onces to be proud of in the Netherlands.

We all know now that an asylum seeker lying about her name & date of birth is a much bigger problem than a minister lying in parliament during one of the most important debates of this year, viewed by more than a million people ….

Holland is a nice country, but we also have our ups and downs.

By the way, what do our Indonesia friends think of these Dutch politics?



pretbek
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Indonesia friends? Other people with opinions?



AbahFairus
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Agung

>>A country doing a very bad job in spreading their thinking is Saudi Arabia. They'll sponsor anything, all over the world, as long as they can spread their way of thinking.<<

1. What kind of way of thinking that Saudi Arabia spread ? I do not know any specific Saudi Arabian way of thinking is being spread right now.

2. Do you know any activities that are sponsored by Saudi Arabia ? Is it sport ? business ? education ? To my knowledge, The government of saudi arabia is only sponsoring scholarship in Islamic high education area.

3. Are you reffering the term "Saudi Arabia" to the government of Saudi Arabia or to all of the people of Saudi Arabia ?

4. Lastly, What do you mean by "doing a very bad job" ? Do you mean that Saudi arabia has a very bad system in sponsoring anything ?




sidia
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On 18-05-2006 14:00 Agung wrote:

By the way, what do our Indonesia friends think of these Dutch politics?


shame , shame , shame

Double Dutch , Democracy a'la Hollandese .


Bisa dicek mas . http://omsid.multiply.com/

AnisJ
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On 16-05-2006 13:42 Agung wrote:
Hi AnisJ,
I dont think this has something to do with "western" thinking. I think the impact of people being killed depends on the fact how much people are able to imagine that it have happened to themselves.

For western people its very easy to imagine that they were visiting the twin towers or were visiting Kuta Bali at the wrong time, so this makes disasters like that very threatening.
...............................................................................................................................................
Why did the tsunami have a great impact on western public opinion? Not because Aceh. No, only because some tourist resorts in Thailand was hit.
...............................................................................................................................................

I am sorry for giving a 'late' reaction.

Agung yth.'

Do you not thing 'westerninterests comes with western thinking' ???
I think you are a bit of naďve do you, what part of the world has so many multinationals and rich people (millionairs and miliardaires; some of them even multi) ......... so which part of the world is depending on its international interests ???
It is a pity that those men/women in the street, in the East and West, (the everage Jan(e) Dough) wille never noticed this 'wealth', but (s)he is very much 'comprimised' as they say 'if you are not with us you are against us': ......... a very strange way of committing democratic values ........ but again because of these very same interests .

Sampai disini dulu ...... mas.


'Ahu kura ahia, mansia nia'

Westerling
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On 18-05-2006 14:00 Agung wrote:
Hi Pretbek,


By the way, what do our Indonesia friends think of these Dutch politics?



Indonesians don't think, that helps.....
Emoticon: Laugh out loud



Albert
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On 07-07-2006 23:29 Westerling wrote:

...
Indonesians dont think, that helps..... Emoticon: Laugh out loud

One of my workers was late today and I asked him why. He said there was an accident with a Motorcycle. And the Indonesian guy who drove it his brains where all over the road.
I told him, that is not possible. Sorry Boss I am not lying I am telling the truth. Again I told him, that is not correct.

You know why? No he told me.
Simple Indonesians do not have a brain. Emoticon: Laugh out loud

If they had one, it would have been such a mess in this country.


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Anastasia
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Emoticon: Nooo hhmmm interesting topic to read.

Unfortunately i dont see anybody with brain here Emoticon: Shiny Emoticon: Yawn Emoticon: Shiny Emoticon: Yawn Emoticon: Shiny



AnisJ
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On 08-07-2006 11:09 Anastasia wrote:
Emoticon: Nooo hhmmm interesting topic to read.
Unfortunately i dont see anybody with brain here Emoticon: Shiny Emoticon: Yawn Emoticon: Shiny Emoticon: Yawn Emoticon: Shiny


Anastasia yth.,

Memang 'Anast.' before Europeans develop the consept, in general, about communication di NUSAnTara , it was already common ........ only in 'colonial times' by 'devide and rule' ..... consept they 'crushed' this very 'Asiatic idea' ....... that is why you see now in this forum our dear friend Albert , as an 'practical' example of this ........ 'colonial consept' á la Hollandaise (oui biensűr) ........
So Albert my friend 'communicate' in a positif way and not negatively .......


'Ahu kura ahia, mansia nia'

Albert
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On 08-07-2006 11:09 Anastasia wrote:
Emoticon: Nooo hhmmm interesting topic to read.

Unfortunately i dont see anybody with brain here Emoticon: Shiny Emoticon: Yawn Emoticon: Shiny Emoticon: Yawn Emoticon: Shiny

Not with Brain no, but with Brains yes. Emoticon: Laugh out loud


Wil je ook meester van je eigen leven zijn? http://www.goudenera.nl

Albert
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On 08-07-2006 11:26 AnisJ wrote:

...

So Albert my friend communicate in a positif way and not negatively .......

What's wrong with the truth. I do buisiness in this country. But do you really think that the suppliers are willing to learn about the meaning customer is King?
If a motor cycle make an accident do you really think he will drive for the rest of his live more carefully?
All the woman who voted for Mega? How much procent will vote for her again? And how much did she do for the woman in here country? She only need to come with false promishes and everybody vote again on her.
Or people who promish to send positive spirits, who vote for them. And they will make them ritch.
Goverment officials are payed to track illegal logging. but those guys pay extra. so the goverment needs to hire extra staff to trace goverment employees who are corupt.
Traffic, is so dangerous that many people are being killed every year. Is there any imporvement?
Voting time. anybody has in his ellection program something about the traffic, enviroment, price of nasi, etc. No. Only about lower the prices, buty after ellections. The voters are fooled.
I go to the leader of Kamping to etent my working Visa. I know a fixed price for all. (from a friend) But with that I say yes Pa because I can trust you. and you can handle this very good I am willing to let you do this every year. If you are willing to do this for my price. And I did not do it the first time, because I lost your telephone number, bla bla bla.
I ask a freight forwarder who has experience with Impoirt, to come to my factory and talk about it. Because I wish to import. They arrive, 3 people with university degree. Did they prepaire anything, could they answer 1 of my questions? No, I needed to wait for 2 weeks and a lot of pushing before i received the answer. With a stupid excuse. I asked them please give me shipping prices every month by e-mail? yes. After 4 times asking, i gave up. Told them not going to use them any more. Because many mistakes they keep on making. they do not wish to learn.

So what Colonial thinking? Crap it is. I talk out of experience, not Colonial or superier idea! I makes no difference about the background or Diploma's. I even have a secretarian with a degree in Economy. But in reality somebody from the west with High school or secondary could do a even better job for me.
.
I have a female worker (manusje van alles), she arranges all in my factory. has no Diploma. Not even finished high school. But even she tells to my wife from time to time, how stupid the University secretarian is. Pure laziness, I DON'T KNOW. Soon he will be out of a job.

Really the things I exerperience in this country? I am not discriminating!!



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