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aliakbar
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Well this topic is common as well as gays are found very open in this muslim country sometimes proudly declaring their gender Status....

If public kissing,,,which is just a means showing affection is a ban here.

Is proudly declaring the above which is a bit different part of the Society legal in Indonesia ?



www Jakarta through the Eyes of an Expat

juffy
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HARAM! (at least in theory)



Desi Clark
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Hmmm...GAY..what can I say about this species?

I strongly oppose the same sex marriage!

Gays.....where do they come from?? Who is to blame?

I have a feeling someday Gay community is not a taboo anymore..just like a mixed couple.

I have no clue where to find gay community in Indonesia... and I am curious to learn how do they become a gay... does it have anything to do with a religion?

My question would be: what does our society think about gay? Can we accept their differences? Do moslems or christians have a different opinion about gay?

I'm debating myself about Gay's rights. Religously, the bible says that God creates Adam and Eve (Man and Woman), not half half... to see gay I feel disgusted. They should have no rights at all... BUT...they are a human too.. they pay taxes..they help a community directly or indirectly to be a better community...and perhaps they do not want to be a gay.... so they do have rights to live normal like we all do... we need to accept their differences...

OH HECK...why am I talking about GAY...! Well GAY.. you do have a right to live in Indonesia or anywhere in the world!! .. Being gay has nothing to do with a religion...! Though Indonesia is a moslem country... if you are a gay, does not mean you can not be a moslem......

PEACE YA'LL
Desi Clark


Effort and Courage are not enough without purpose and direction.

janss557
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"Gay" is not something you become. They do not come from anywhere, as they ARE anywhere. No one is to blame. There shouldn't be any bad feelings involved. The word "blame" indicates something like a prejudice. It has NOTHING to do with religion, although many narrow-minded religions do not approve of homosexuality. Including my own religion (roman catholic)! I couldn't possibly condemn gay people for being what they are. They have the (human) right to be happy, and they are not happy if they deny their own homosexuality. Many people refer to the Bible (or the Qoran, for that matter) and come up with a story like Adam's en Eve's, whereas they forget the other important issue, as stated in the Bible (and the Qoran) i.e. tolerance. You don't only find gay people in Indonesia, you find them anywhere around the world, also in your own immediate surroundings. An estimated 10% of men is homosexual, a somewhat lower percentage of women is lesbian. I think it might be imaginable that in your surroundings homosexuals are living, of which you don't know that they are, whereas you think to know them.
The Bible also indicates somewhere "do not judge, so that you are not being judged". The words might be different, but the message is there al right!
If the Bible says that God created man and woman after his own image, it doesn't necessarily imply a condemnation of men loving men and women loving women.
By the way, before anyone judges me - I'm not gay, I'm happily married and father of a very clever and handsome son. I love my wife and son very much! And I think I'm being tolerant in a way that should be considered Christian!

I'm sorry if I hurt feelings here, but I think it wouldn't be fair if I were not honest. Else this would be a discussion in which there is no room for opinions else than "yes" or "no". That would be too easy a discussion. There are also opinions in between "yes" and "no".



Desi Clark
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On 03-05-2004 19:02 juffy wrote:
HARAM! (at least in theory)


If you are a moslem, and you eat PORK,,that's HARAM!

If you are a Gay...can you call yourself Haram? Why is Haram? Because you share feelings or have sex with the same sex?

Naaaah, Haram is not appropriate when you are referring to a gay.

Disclaimer: Like Janss, I am not gay either! Whohahahahahaha....

Desi Clark



Effort and Courage are not enough without purpose and direction.

Jeroen
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Gay communities in Indonesia? Don't worry there are enough of them, the only problem is that it's less accepted than countries like mine.

Learn how to be gay? I don't believe it workds that way, it's more that you are born with the feeling or not.

Religion and being gay? It's a stupid idea to any religious writing that people other than a man-woman relationship are 'not pure' or 'not healthy' or 'not allowed' or anything like that. But that's my opinion as a non-believer.

Yerun



Albert
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We are all Gods children and he loves them all.


Wil je ook meester van je eigen leven zijn? http://www.goudenera.nl

mashil
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Gay or not gay, we are all the same. In very old stories you can already read about love about the same sexe. I think it already exist since the human exist, but now it is becoming more accepted in mine country and also more countries I guess.
You just born gay or straight it's not a illness like some people think. It is a illness if you are not able to accept a person who is different then you are.
But I have a question here, sometimes I think you can see somebody is gay, how is that possible you think? And I don't mean the men who act like ladies, but the others.
Mas Hil.


- Let us live simply so that others may simply live -

budowono1
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On 04-05-2004 13:30 Albert wrote:
We are all Gods children and he loves them all.


does the bible not also forbid homosexuaity
and i quote acording to the book of genesis .
god created a man and a women a
adam and eve but nothing aboud gay there for according to his hoyness pope paulus Johannes 2 i is a sin to be gay



Desi Clark
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God is clear about the consequences of unrighteousness such as homosexual behavior. Yet, as with other sinful lifestyles, homosexuality is forgivable if a person repents of his or her actions and turns to God. His power can bring healing, restoration and change. Thatís the message thatís being silenced today: there is freedom from homosexuality through the unconditional love and grace of Jesus Christ. Of course, ending a destructive behavioróespecially one that is addictive in nature like drinking, smoking or having homosexual (or heterosexual) intercourseóis a difficult task. But there is so much hope with Jesus! Think about it: Godís power is amazing! If He could raise Jesus from the dead, He can rescue a person from any entanglement.

Desi Clark


Effort and Courage are not enough without purpose and direction.

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I have a lot of gay friends and all l can say is being gay or straight is a matter of choice. it has nothing to do with religon whatsoever. As Albert once said, well, l hope l don't offend anybody. Peace Emoticon: Bye bye


Slightly older, hopefully wiser, absolutely prettier

Jeroen
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Any God that discriminates on people's choice of partner is not a God for me.. sorry, I rather have one that is open to things instead of disapproving it on beforehand.



Albert
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It is said in Holland that a Guy gay, can be a womans best friend.

Why?
Because he is part woman himself, and so he behaves like a woman and understands a woman better then a straight guy..

And what Jeroen said; about a God discriminate.....
Every religion which says negative things about Homosexual people, like punishment from God,etc. is wrong.

In spirituality you learn different things about it.
That God is not a God of hate but a God of LOVE.
So thats why I wrote, we are all Gods children, and He loves us all.

If a child is adopted by two homosexual guys. It is impossible that the child will be come homosexual to.

Albert Emoticon: Bye bye


Wil je ook meester van je eigen leven zijn? http://www.goudenera.nl

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I agree with Albert because there is no guarantee that a child who is raised by a heterosexual couple will become heterosexual too, and vice versa. Besides, being a gay doesn't make a person become less human, does it? Emoticon: Wink


Slightly older, hopefully wiser, absolutely prettier

Albert
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On 06-05-2004 03:00 Desi Clark wrote: [But there is so much hope with Jesus! Think about it: Godís power is amazing! If He could raise Jesus from the dead, He can rescue a person from any entanglement.
Desi Clark


Desi,

Did Jesus not said, that we human beings will do even greater things then He did.
We are already doing it today. Not so big yet but that will come in time.
Still many people do not believe, and say it comes from the Devil, etc.

I am talking about healing powers. You can pray to God if you wish and ask Him to be removed from your complains (whatever they are). But He has given us the same powers as he has given to Jesus. So you only need to find a organisation who can help you. I do not say you can forget all about God, No.

Why should you try to get into contact with the Director, if he has employees who can help you.

This organisation who teaches people how to heal and (try to do the best to heal others for free. No charge, when you enter and no charge when you leave.
I am already a member of it for many years and it feels good if you can help you fellow human being from his/her complains. Or for as far to take away a bit of the problem/pain.

There are many kind of healing organisations.

Some few URLs of one organisation, so you can have a look for it yourself. If you or somebody of your family has complains, get into contact with them. Ask if their is a member who is living in your own town. Maybe somebody who can help you is living next door.

http://www.shyholland.nl/ (Holland
http://www.mel-hq.com/ (Usa)
http://www.mel-ozie.com/ (Australia)

Albert
http://www.sharenl.org/index.html (Dutch
http://www.share-international.org/ (Eng)
http://www.sharejapan.org/id/ (Indonesia)


Wil je ook meester van je eigen leven zijn? http://www.goudenera.nl

diederick
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This forum gradually gets a bit too religious for my taste, i have to say......



Albert
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Healing one and other has got nothing to do with religion, if that is what you mean. Emoticon: Nooo

Now we talk about religion, tomorrow we talk among kosong, day after tomorrow we talk about Visa, marriage, etc. And after that maybe again about religion.

Is Indonesia not strong religious? Emoticon: Yes!

Albert


Wil je ook meester van je eigen leven zijn? http://www.goudenera.nl

diederick
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Yes Albert, they themselves say -at leat officialy- so. I always distrust this kind of comments about yourself or a nation. What is by the way "strong religious"? Are there also "soft religious" countries or regions? And this healing business, has that something to do with doctoring "between the ears" (f.i. you have cancer, but this is due to your personality or attitude?) or with these healing baptist or presbyterian preachers you can even see on television here in Indonesia?



Albert
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I know a scientist who has studied for more then 15 years healing with energy from our own body.

And he clames that all illness starts between our ears.

If you think for 100% positive and you beleve for 100% you cannot get ill. Then it is for 100% sure nothing will happen.

There are people who cured themselve from cancer only with their will power.

And yes that is what I mean with 100% OK in my other topic.

What is very well known in Indonesia is Reiki, but Reiki cost money.

Albert


Wil je ook meester van je eigen leven zijn? http://www.goudenera.nl

diederick
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Guess what, Albert.. I even believe that there are people that cured themselves through willpower or other means. I know that can happen. But does that say anything about other people who died of cancer (or hunger, or other diseases for that matter)? Where these bad or unknowing people? The human body is so frail, anything can happen to you anytime (believe me i've seen enough, that makes me also a bit angry regarding this topic). And finally, we will all die eventually, even if you are 100% okay, positive. And fortunately we will (who wants to become 150 years old? I not!)



Desi Clark
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On 04-05-2004 14:27 Maschill wrote:

You just born gay or straight its not a illness like some people think.
Mas Hil.


Myth#2: Homosexuals are born Gay..
Can someone be born a homosexual?

The biggest possible reason is this: If the world was convinced that some people are indeed born gay, then some would feel there is a need to protect homosexuals by the government as a designated minority class status, such as African- or Native-Americans.

FACT: THERE IS NO EVIDENCE TO SUPPORT THE CLAIM THAT A PERSON CAN BE BORN HOMOSEXUAL.

Groetjes...
Desi Clark


Effort and Courage are not enough without purpose and direction.

Desi Clark
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On 06-05-2004 10:01 Jeroen wrote:
Any God that discriminates on peoples choice of partner is not a God for me.. sorry, I rather have one that is open to things instead of disapproving it on beforehand.


WHY DOES THE TRUTH MATTER?
God created the unique relationship between a man and a woman. Yet He is equally unhappy with pre-marital sexual relationships as He is with homosexual relationships. Both are not what He intended. To say that homosexual relationships are the same as heterosexual ones is to make a mockery of Godís divine act of creation and His ordination of marriage. He made man and woman for each other and called it ďgoodĒ (Genesis 1:26-28,31). To say otherwise is to lead people astray.




Effort and Courage are not enough without purpose and direction.

kleinsmann
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Never knew we had racists in de forum.
I can say lots about it but I better don't. Hope someday they see the "light" or maybe I better say: they receive brains...
God created us all, respect eachother and try not to judge...We are all egual,brown,white,gay,Indonesian,Dutch,browneyed,blond,hetrosexual etc etc. Hope someday you all see. I'm shocked...

Martijn Emoticon: Cry


Just because you're paranoid don't mean there're not after you...

Albert
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On 06-05-2004 20:03 Desi Clark wrote:


FACT: THERE IS NO EVIDENCE TO SUPPORT THE CLAIM THAT A PERSON CAN BE BORN HOMOSEXUAL.

Groetjes...
Desi Clark


I hope that there is evidence that we can be born straight. Emoticon: Wink


Albert


Wil je ook meester van je eigen leven zijn? http://www.goudenera.nl

kleinsmann
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Desi as a so called mixed-couple president I think you should know better. What if some 2 gays with mixed cultures want to join?
Thought that your organisation was more open-minded...

Regs,

TYN



Just because you're paranoid don't mean there're not after you...


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