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AbahFairus
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Search,

I reply : You may ask for various opinions. How can we kill someone for converting from Islam if there is a passage in Qur'an that says “There is no compulsion in religion.” ? You said that Qur'an is the highest authority in Islam.

Oh, don't you read me saying the concept of Nasakh? There are a later verse contradicting the verse of NO COMPULSION IN RELIGION.
Seeing the history, your prophet uttered the verse of no compulsion when he was in Mecca, weak. The verse that WE mentioned, 4:88-90, contradicted the verse and of course it was a later verse, because it was a Medinah verse.
Isn't it?

I reply : There is no such concept in Islamic teaching. Why do you insist Muslims to accept a concept that doesn’t exist in their teaching ? Did you get that concept from single sided sources ? Did I tell you to go to more balance sources like discussion forum or debating forum ? If you need my help I would not hesitate to tell you one or two discussion/debating forum on the internet. Are you ready to be involved with double/multiple sided sources ?


search

You asked me why I didn't mention the 90? Why should I? it didn't negate the fact that your Allah in Quran told you to kill apostates.

I reply : by mentioning the verse 90, it would be clear that Peace is better accepted by Islamic teaching by forced killing. Beside that the verse 90 can not be separated when we need to understand the historical background.
Nice try though ! There is a tendency for Islam Bashers to quote ayah in Qur’an inappropriately. Emoticon: Smile




AbahFairus
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search

I wrote : Well, you stated in your previous post like this…”You,….muslims.”. Is it only a Guess ? or are you a fortuneteller ?

search replied : So are you a moslem or not? I don't like being a fortune teller, but seeing your defence for Islam, I make a guess that you are. I only don't know if you are a Quran only or a Quran Hadiths. But my wild guessing is the second.
Mengapa mutar-mutar mas. Just say yes or no. Itu saja.

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I reply : Would you believe me that in a Islam debate forum there are some atheists (of course atheist not any other member of faith group) who defend Islam from inappropriate debating. Of course, the atheists know that is it common for Islam bashers to get information from single sided sources. If you really want to know the forum I would tell you, if only you are ready.

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After our discussion, we see there are a lot of difference between modern legal system and sharia, and I don't see why it should be applied, especially to those who are NOT moslems.

I reply : I’m just curious, how do you define “Modern Legal System”.

Don’t be so hurry guy ! There is still a misunderstanding in using the term of Sharia and Fiqih in your posts. I have given you more than enough logical refutation that we can not misunderstand the meaning those two terms. I haven’t got any logical refutation from you that Sharia and fiqih can be interchanged in meaning.
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Search said : Nasakh means "abrogation", since Allah in Quran abrogates some earlier verses with later "better verses".

I reply : There is no such nasakh concept in Islamic teaching, as I said before.





AbahFairus
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Dear readers,

This is just a discussion session between those who do not share the same understanding. I have a firm belief that it is okay to have different opinion regarding any issue, however the main purpose of this website is to know more about Indonesia and those who may concern.
There is a concept of silaturahmi in Islam, which means, keeping a good and healthy interaction among us. I would say this discussion session is a kind of silaturahmi, eventhough we're not sharing the same ideas.

It's nice to know you all.
before it is too late ; I would thank to the website managements, moderators, The initiator of this Topic ( kiwimave), and everybody who has participated.

Let's Go on ! keep the debate in a HOT circumstances




AbahFairus
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searching, please do not give up too early ! Emoticon: Smile



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AF,

First of all, are you a moslem or not? This simple question you fail to answer. This is your answer:

I reply : Would you believe me that in a Islam debate forum there are some atheists (of course atheist not any other member of faith group) who defend Islam from inappropriate debating. Of course, the atheists know that is it common for Islam bashers to get information from single sided sources. If you really want to know the forum I would tell you, if only you are ready.

I don't discuss about other forums, I only ask about you.


Find out the real face of Islam, read www. faithfreedom.org

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AF,

you kid me. We just start and I am just warming up. I hope you don't run away when I show you that you contradict your own Quran.


Find out the real face of Islam, read www. faithfreedom.org

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AF,

I start from behind.

You said;
I reply : There is no such nasakh concept in Islamic teaching, as I said before.

Here is what I found:

Naskh, an Arabic language word usually translated as "abrogation" and alternately appearing as the phrase al-nāsikh wal-mansūkh ("the abrogating and abrogated [verses]" Emoticon: Wink , is a technical term for a major genre of Islamic legal exegesis directed at the problem of seemingly contradictory material within or between the twin bases of Islamic holy law: the Qur'ān and the Prophetic Sunna.
Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naskh_(exegesis)

The very source of abrogation comes from your own holy book, in Al Baqara:
2:106 Any message which, We annul or consign to oblivion We replace with a better or a similar one. [87] Dost thou not know that God has the power to will anything?
Source: http://www.islamicity.com/QuranSearch/

This verse means: That Allah annul or consign messeages in order to change it into better ones.
Logical consequences of this verse is that THE OLDER ONE IS ABROGATED BY THE NEW ONE.

Over to you to give us sources that there are NO abrogation, but there will be some consequences: That there are some contradicting verses in Quran.



Find out the real face of Islam, read www. faithfreedom.org

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AF,

Don't be so hurry guy ! There is still a misunderstanding in using the term of Sharia and Fiqih in your posts. I have given you more than enough logical refutation that we can not misunderstand the meaning those two terms. I haven't got any logical refutation from you that Sharia and fiqih can be interchanged in meaning.

Aah, I understand what you are trying to say. You mean that Sharia Legal System is derived from Islamic Sources (Quran, etc) but the application (Fiqh) depends on the interpretation based on Islamic source. So you mean to say when I say "the application of sharia law" you use the term "fiqh".
Really, a fuss about the term.

But this reminds me on something, you forgot to give me example of different interpretation of punishment for apostasy from the four mazhab in Sunni Sects (Hanafi, Maliki, Shafii and Hambali) . Indonesia used Shafii, isn't it?
Well, at least we make a progress here.



Find out the real face of Islam, read www. faithfreedom.org

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AF,

I reply : by mentioning the verse 90, it would be clear that Peace is better accepted by Islamic teaching by forced killing. Beside that the verse 90 can not be separated when we need to understand the historical background.
Nice try though ! There is a tendency for Islam Bashers to quote ayah in Qur'an inappropriately. Emoticon: Smile


Ooh, since you insist, ok, let us discuss all the verses we mention.
source: http://www.islamicity.com/QuranSearch/


4:88 What aileth you that ye are become two parties regarding the hypocrites, when Allah cast them back (to disbelief) because of what they earned? Seek ye to guide him whom Allah hath sent astray? He whom Allah sendeth astray, for him thou (O Muhammad) canst not find a road.

My interpretation: Moslems feel uneasy of fighting people they call "hypocrite" (doubtful or not a true moslem, in my opinion), but Allah assure that He has disowned them. Allah has let them go astray.

4:89 They long that ye should disbelieve even as they disbelieve, that ye may be upon a level (with them). So choose not friends from them till they forsake their homes in the way of Allah; if they turn back (to enmity) then take them and kill them wherever ye find them, and choose no friend nor helper from among them,

Here, if the y don't go back to Allah's way (BUT KEEP IN MIND, ALLAH HAS LET THEM GO ASHRAY!, see previous verse), when they apostate, kill them and don't befriend with them.

4 Emoticon: Nice 0 Except those who seek refuge with a people between whom and you there is a covenant, or (those who) come unto you because their hearts forbid them to make war on you or make war on their own folk. Had Allah willed He could have given them power over you so that assuredly they would have fought you. So, if they hold aloof from you and wage not war against you and offer you peace, Allah alloweth you no way against them.

Except the apostates who have ties with people having agreement with Mohammeds or if their hearts don't want to kil their own folks. For them, don't harm them..

You don't see the evil in these verses:
So the choice of the people mentioned are:
1) Apostates = death
2) Not killed if they don't want to make war with moslems. Or people having ties with people having convenants with moslems.

Isn't it some kind off TERROR? Not much choice, isn't it? Now I ask you again, what time when the verse was uttered by your prophet?

For readers: Many of the meccans saw the moslems as their own folks and don't really want to go to war.


Find out the real face of Islam, read www. faithfreedom.org

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AF,

I reply : For the sake of Logical consistency !
Let's analyse these statements below.

1. They believe that Qur'an is From God
2. They believe that Qur'an is the only God's last revelation for All of Human being until the end of the days.
3. They believe that God has sent down guidances for Human being since Adam
4. They believe that Qur'an is guidance

From those premises, it would very logical if Muslims take Qur'an as their highest source of Guidance.

It would be illogical for Muslims if they took, let's say, Shakespearean's writings as their highest authority, right ?


Faith, isn't it? But HOW do you know that it's God's Word? It is only based on FAITH not on logic.
What is the difference between believing that Quran is the words of god and believing that there are green creatures in Mars? Just a comparison.


Find out the real face of Islam, read www. faithfreedom.org

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AF,

I reply : That is the difference between Public law and Private law. You may ask any lawyer. And eating any kind of food is not considered as law, it was just ethic.

LOL………..There are so many scientific facts from non-muslim scientists that fit with Qur'anic teaching.

That's why I don't suggest you to go to any site I know. You are free to gain information from various sources. The keyword is various.


Yes, ethic. But the force of the ETHIC to society can be called law as well. I ask you now, why should bars and discoteque be closed during your fasting? Why should restaurants be closed as well (or should close itself). This is ETHIC imposed by force. And this what will happen once Indonesia apply sharia.

Oh, what are the scientific facts? How if we discuss here? Is it related to BEE LIFE narrated by Quran? or else? Would love to discuss them with you.


Find out the real face of Islam, read www. faithfreedom.org

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AF,

I reply : In Arabic, Imam means Leader. It can be applicable for any kind of Leader. The most well known is Imam in Prayer…….LOL.
Clergy has different meaning than Imam, Clergy means Ke-pendetaan. There is no Kependetaan In Islam, I'm so sure about this.

The main purpose of Catholicism church is to Lead Catholic all over the world in their Faith and internal Religious affair. I don't think catholic church has some kind of Integrated Legal system like Islam does.


LOL, but women can't be imam, correct? There were times in dark ages when Catholic led people based on Bible, and it was not good. So when you want to learn from history?


Find out the real face of Islam, read www. faithfreedom.org

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AF,

I have to remind you that we are in a discussion session, please don't just be moaning or directing your statement to anybody personally. What we discuss are IDEAS not PERSONAL.

As I said before, there are many interpretations on Islamic Laws including matrimonial law. I would be very un-democratic if interfere their Fiqih interpretations.


Aha, my apology.
But you want to apply a legal system that is applied (Fiqh) based on the interpretation? Wow. If one day the people in chage decide to make the kind of Fiqh like Taliban, it's very dangerous.
And for your info, there are more application of sharia (Fiqh) which oppress human rights (Arab, Pakistan, Taliban, etc), so the danger of applying Sharia IS MORE than not applying it. So why you insist that it is positive?
You also mention that Sharia has the same concept with modern legal system, so why don't use modern legal system, since it is acceptable by all people, rather than Sharia legal system?


Find out the real face of Islam, read www. faithfreedom.org

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AF,

I reply : And she was still businesswoman after marrying Muslims' last prophet.

your prophet claimed to be a prophet when he was around 40, after she was around 55.

Now, the last step is to “Beat lightly”. The purpose of this third step is to prevent husband to use strong physical power to his wife. The only women who got the final step would be very minority.

You ever complained about my quranic translation, because there was bracketed words.

Now see if you are consistent with your own word:

4:34 Men are the protectors and maintainers of women, because Allah has given the one more (strength) than the other, and because they support them from their means. Therefore the righteous women are devoutly obedient, and guard in (the husband's) absence what Allah would have them guard. As to those women on whose part ye fear disloyalty and ill-conduct, admonish them (first), (Next), refuse to share their beds, (And last) beat them (lightly); but if they return to obedience, seek not against them Means (of annoyance): For Allah is Most High, great (above you all).

Source: http://www.islamicity.com/QuranSearch/

The words, first, next and lightly are BRACKETED, means they are NOT in Quran, just the addition of the translator (Yusuf Ali in this case).

As Shakespear wrote: "to beat or not to beat..."


Find out the real face of Islam, read www. faithfreedom.org

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AF,

you mentioned nobody can make things like quran?

Eat your own hat.

http://www.islam-exposed.org/furqan/contents.html

For readers: Present you True Furqan, which is comparable (and exceed) quran. So the challenge in Quran is answered, isn't it?


Find out the real face of Islam, read www. faithfreedom.org

AbahFairus
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Search,

Search said : I don't discuss about other forums, I only ask about you.

I reply : And we are not discussing about personal matter. Emoticon: Smile
If you are interested in personal matter why don’t you ask the size of my pants ? LOL
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Search said : you kid me. We just start and I am just warming up.

I reply : Great ! Nice to hear that. Emoticon: Smile Way to go man !
--------------------------------

I hope you don't run away when I show you that you contradict your own Quran.

I reply : I won’t ! It is always nice to hear such claim ! Please do not hesitate. Emoticon: Smile
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I said : There is no such nasakh concept in Islamic teaching, as I said before.

You replied : Here is what I found :

Naskh, an Arabic language word usually translated as "abrogation" and alternately appearing as the phrase al-nāsikh wal-mansūkh ("the abrogating and abrogated [verses]" , is a technical term for a major genre of Islamic legal exegesis directed at the problem of seemingly contradictory material within or between the twin bases of Islamic holy law: the Qur'ān and the Prophetic Sunna.
Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naskh_(exegesis)

I reply : The concept of nasakh wal mansukh is not known to majority of Muslims especially the Sunni. Sunni Muslims consists of more than 80 % from the total muslims population. However, the concept of nasakh wal mansukh is known among some Shia scholars.
I have to apology for not mentioning The Shia Muslims in the first place. But I do think that not all of Shia scholars agree with the concept.
----------------------------------------------

The very source of abrogation comes from your own holy book, in Al Baqara:
2:106 Any message which, We annul or consign to oblivion We replace with a better or a similar one. [87] Dost thou not know that God has the power to will anything?
Source: http://www.islamicity.com/QuranSearch/

Nice try ! this is three English versions of the verse ;
002.106
YUSUFALI: None of Our revelations do We abrogate or cause to be forgotten, but We substitute something better or similar: Knowest thou not that Allah Hath power over all things?
PICKTHAL: Nothing of our revelation (even a single verse) do we abrogate or cause be forgotten, but we bring (in place) one better or the like thereof. Knowest thou not that Allah is Able to do all things?
SHAKIR: Whatever communications We abrogate or cause to be forgotten, We bring one better than it or like it. Do you not know that Allah has power over all things?
---------------------------------------------------

search statement : This verse means: That Allah annul or consign messeages in order to change it into better ones.
Logical consequences of this verse is that THE OLDER ONE IS ABROGATED BY THE NEW ONE.
Over to you to give us sources that there are NO abrogation, but there will be some consequences: That there are some contradicting verses in Quran.

I reply : From my analysis, there is no such clue in the verse that indicating the concept of abrogation. However, You are most welcome to show us your ability to analyse the semantical meaning of the verse ( It should be in Arabic, but English is fine) that indicating the abrogation concept in Qur’an. And furthermore the verse is an answer to a discourse among the Shahaba




Agung
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On 20-07-2006 07:39 searching wrote:
AF,

I reply : For the sake of Logical consistency !
Lets analyse these statements below.

1. They believe that Quran is From God
2. They believe that Quran is the only Gods last revelation for All of Human being until the end of the days.
3. They believe that God has sent down guidances for Human being since Adam
4. They believe that Quran is guidance

From those premises, it would very logical if Muslims take Quran as their highest source of Guidance.

It would be illogical for Muslims if they took, lets say, Shakespeareans writings as their highest authority, right ?


Faith, isnt it? But HOW do you know that its Gods Word? It is only based on FAITH not on logic.
What is the difference between believing that Quran is the words of god and believing that there are green creatures in Mars? Just a comparison.


The only difference between believing in "green creatures from Mars" and the globally accepted religions like Islam is the number of people that believe it.

- With less than 100.000 followers the believers it is not accepted as religion.
- With more than about 10.000.000 followers it is accepted as religion, but it still does not have respect.
- With about 1.000.000.000 followers it is truly accepted and people will in general be forced to show some respect for it.

So, in religion it's all about the number of followers you have. It's no coincidence that the main religions advise their followers to have many babies..... Emoticon: Wink



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AF,

I reply : And we are not discussing about personal matter.
If you are interested in personal matter why don't you ask the size of my pants ? LOL


Funny. First you asked why I assumed that you are moslems. I have already said that I assume that because you defended Sharia and Islam. Then I continued saying that I don't want to guess further and it's better you tell me if you are islam or not. Then you complain that I ask something personal. Funny indeed. I don't care if you are a politically correct person or a moslem or a leftist. But if you don't want to answer, just say that you don't want to answer, and don't go around in circles. It wastes time.

I reply : Great ! Nice to hear that. Way to go man !

How long can you go. We will see.

I reply : I won't ! It is always nice to hear such claim ! Please do not hesitate.

I am relieved to hear that.

I reply : The concept of nasakh wal mansukh is not known to majority of Muslims especially the Sunni. Sunni Muslims consists of more than 80 % from the total muslims population. However, the concept of nasakh wal mansukh is known among some Shia scholars.
I have to apology for not mentioning The Shia Muslims in the first place. But I do think that not all of Shia scholars agree with the concept.


But you know. And you also mentioned this before:

I reply : There is no such nasakh concept in Islamic teaching, as I said before

A bit contradictive, isn't it? Then suddenly you admit that there is such concept, although you claimed only a small part of Islam admit that.
Are you sure NO sunnis believe in the concept of abrogation? Emoticon: Nooo

Nice try ! this is three English versions of the verse ;
002.106
YUSUFALI: None of Our revelations do We abrogate or cause to be forgotten, but We substitute something better or similar: Knowest thou not that Allah Hath power over all things?
PICKTHAL: Nothing of our revelation (even a single verse) do we abrogate or cause be forgotten, but we bring (in place) one better or the like thereof. Knowest thou not that Allah is Able to do all things?
SHAKIR: Whatever communications We abrogate or cause to be forgotten, We bring one better than it or like it. Do you not know that Allah has power over all things?


What is different with the source I bring about (Yusuf Ali)? It was taken from www.islamicity.com, one of the most complete Islamic Site.

But as you wish, let us analyze one of the translation you bring:

PICKTHAL: Nothing of our revelation (even a single verse) do we abrogate or cause be forgotten, but we bring (in place) one better or the like thereof. Knowest thou not that Allah is Able to do all things?

1) Nothing - it's a negative condition.
2) Our revelation (even a single verse) - this means 'verses' in Quran, since moslems believes Quran as a revelation or words from Allah.
3) Do we abrogate - We here is the "single" allah. Abrogate mean abrogate.
4) Or caused to be forgotten
The 3) and 4) indicate about the verses "changed" or "forgotten"
5) but - here mean except.
6) but we bring (in place) one better or the like thereof - means the new verse which is better than the verse "changed" or "forgotten".
This verse, in my opinion, means that God will NOT abrogate a verse without giving a new and "better" verse. Of course, it means that the verse should be related to the same matter. It's some kind of substitution.

I reply : From my analysis, there is no such clue in the verse that indicating the concept of abrogation. However, You are most welcome to show us your ability to analyse the semantical meaning of the verse ( It should be in Arabic, but English is fine) that indicating the abrogation concept in Qur'an. And furthermore the verse is an answer to a discourse among the Shahaba


Oh, the verse indicates that GOD abrogates verses by changing it with NEW VERSES. So the abrogation is possible, according to Quran.
You are most welcomed to analyze the verse again and compare it with my analysis.
Once again, AF, when you try to explain Quranic verses by relating it to special event, implicitly you are saying that Quranic Verses are NOT for all time, because it should be related to a certain event in the past. Do you want to make that assumption? I am more than willing to accept.

Dear Readers, you may also comment.


Find out the real face of Islam, read www. faithfreedom.org

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Agung,

Emoticon: Yes!


Find out the real face of Islam, read www. faithfreedom.org

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AF,

Would you mind reading again this on Nasakh?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naskh_(exegesis)

I found a rather strange explanation that this concept came when:


The emergence of naskh (initially as practice and then as fully elaborated theory) dates back to the first centuries of Islamic civilization. Almost all classical naskh works, for instance, open by recounting the incident of the Kufan preacher banned from expounding the Qur'ān by an early 'ilmic authority figure (usually 'Alī but sometimes also Ibn 'Abbās) on account of his ignorance of the principles of naskh (Rippin, BSOAS 47, pp. 26, 38). Whatever the historicity of such traditions (modern scholars generally dismiss them):

...the elaboration of the theories is datable with certainty to at least the latter half of the second century after Muhammad, when Shāfi'ī, in his Risāla and in the somewhat later Ikhtilāf al-Hadīth was applying his considerable talents to resolving the serious problem of the apparent discrepancies between certain Qur'ānic verses and others; between certain hadīths and others; and, most serious of all, between certain Qur'ānic verses and certain hadīths.
Burton, JSS 15, p. 250


I also found out that in Tabari, Bukhari, etc, there are mentions of that, and the sects promoting the importance of Sunna (the example of hadiths) is SUNNI.

http://i-cias.com/e.o/sunni.htm

So, once again, are you sure only Shia sect believes in abrogation?


Find out the real face of Islam, read www. faithfreedom.org

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Agung,

I remember one article written by Ali Sina, the founder of faithfreedom, he compared the faith in a funny remark:

" I believe in Bugs Bunny"

I suggest you to read, it's funny, but it's an old article.


Find out the real face of Islam, read www. faithfreedom.org

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AF,

Addition to my own word:
2) Not killed if they don't want to make war with moslems. Or people having ties with people having convenants with moslems.

And whether they are assumed to want to make war with moslems or not is based ON what moslems suspect. Poor people. One example of this was written in Hadiths, Banu Qurayza. The men of Banu Qurayza (for readers, they are one tribe of Jew people living in Middle East during the prophet) were massacred, isn't it? If you want to make another thread concerning this, I am more than happy to join you.

By the way, where are you?


Find out the real face of Islam, read www. faithfreedom.org

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AF,

I hope you don't run away this early.

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Find out the real face of Islam, read www. faithfreedom.org

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Readers,

If you want a comprehensive site about Islam and its teaching, you can find it in:

www.answeringislam.org

If you want the answer to the site from the moslems, you can find at:

www.answeringchristianity.com

So you will have a broarder thinking of what is inside Islam. Is it really a peaceful religion its followers "force" us to believe?

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Find out the real face of Islam, read www. faithfreedom.org

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Readers,

For those having problems or anything about Islam or moslems, you can ask advice to Aunt Latifa, at:

http://auntlatifa.squarespace.com/

Aunt Latifa speaks arabic and very knowledgable and wise.

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