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AbahFairus
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Can you understand the difference between Sharia and Fiqih Agung ?

Can you accept that there is a massive misunderstanding in the use of the terms Sharia and fiqih ?






searching
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AF,

I reply : Again, Sharia is not just LAW. It's Legal System. You need to see the definition of Law from the dictionary.
This is what I found : Law = A set of rules or principles dealing with a specific area of a “legal system”: tax law; criminal law.


Law is typically administered through a system of courts in which judges (sometimes with the aid of a jury or lay magistrate) hear disputes between parties, and apply a set of rules in order to provide an outcome that is just and fair. The substantive and procedural laws, and the manner in which laws are administered, are collectively known as a legal system, which typically has developed through tradition in each country. .

Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legal_system

So, LEGAL SYSTEM IS THE SYSTEM WHERE THE LAWS IS APPLIED TO THE SOCIETY. For Islamic Laws, it is Sharia. I wonder why you try to mix a thing that is so clear.




Find out the real face of Islam, read www. faithfreedom.org

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AF,

I reply : Sharia is more general than fiqih so it has to be the other way around. The presence of Fiqih can not be separated from Sharia, but sharia as a whole body of LAWS and Regulations can be separated from Fiqih.


Read my explanation above. Islamic Laws are compiled and done and is called Sharia. But when I said ISLAMIC LAWS, I mean all the Islamic based laws (Quran, etc) and the legal system to apply that is Sharia for Islam. It is derived from Islamic culture and society, so NOT appliable for those who have different culture, i.e. NON moslems.





Find out the real face of Islam, read www. faithfreedom.org

searching
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AF,

I reply : We have something in common. The difference is that you “Believe” that Qur'an is the highest authority, While I do “Have an understanding” why Qur'an should be the highest authority.

I don't mean "believe" that I believe it to be the highest authority FOR ME, but for islamic laws, or should we say Sharia.
And why Quran should be the highest authority? I hope you don't come with a mumbo jumbo that it's the word of God so it must be true.




Find out the real face of Islam, read www. faithfreedom.org

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AF,

reply : This is a bit simplification. There are several kinds of punishment for theft. Amputation of extremity is the highest punishment. The moral of step by step punishment is to make the doer of theft re-think about their action. And don't forget that there should be a hearing or legal process in front of Legal authority.
Again, we can not apply any kind of punishment, if the society ( By democratic process) is not informed and aware.
This kind of law is a penal code or criminal law (fiqih) not sharia.


But it is one of the punishment offered by Sharia LEGAL SYSTEM, isn't it?


Find out the real face of Islam, read www. faithfreedom.org

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AF,

I reply : I agree with this one. I have to agree because I read some scientific facts that support this kind of practice. You may take a personal research on this.


So it is true. So if moslems don't want to eat pigs, why should Non moslem don't eat pigs? It's very PERSONAL and a personal choice. Don't say you want to bring the scientific facts from Harun Yahya or Ahmed Deedat. Emoticon: Nooo


Find out the real face of Islam, read www. faithfreedom.org

searching
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AF,

I reply : emphasizing for housekeeping is a kind of cultural thing than religious. The accurate one is emphasizing for family management.


Hm, but it's in Sharia LEGAL SYSTEM, isn't it?

I reply : In Indonesian family court (pengadilan agama), it should be after a decree from judge.

But we talk about WHEN Sharia Legal System is applied in Atceh or Indonesia. At the moment, we don't have Sharia Legal System just like in Malaysia. But we are heading there, when people like you make justification this and that. Oh, it also happens in Pakistan, that men can divorce his wife by saying 3 times.

I reply : Is there a concept of clergy in Islam ? I don't think so.
Women are not allowed to be a scholar In Islam ? Well, are you sure you are not confusing Islam with Catholicism ?


Clergy = imam, mas. Start trying tu quo que, huh? The Catholic doesn't apply Catholic Legal System, even to moslems residing in Vatican.

reply : Then you may ask various opinion from Islamic scholars.
Women are forbidden from working in the government ???? Well, there is a probability that some minority would conclude that women are forbidden from working in the government. I'm sure that this is not from qur'an nor reliable hadith.


Hmm...it happened during Taliban Regime, as you know they applied purely from Quran and Hadiths. In Arab Saudi, women cannot drive cars, cannot meet with people without aulia, etc.

I reply : remember Khadija who was well known as a businesswoman.


She was a Business Woman and a Strong woman, even before marrying to your prophet.

reply : There is some scholars who have different opinion.


Scholar opinions VS Quran, which one will you choose?





Find out the real face of Islam, read www. faithfreedom.org

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AF,

I reply : There are different opinion on how men and women should cover their bodies.


But it does control how people dress, which is VERY different from modern approach that respect people's choice. What is wrong if a woman puts on a tennis outfit? or swimming outfit? Why should they swim in Burkha?


Find out the real face of Islam, read www. faithfreedom.org

searching
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AF,

I reply : this would be interesting if discussed in a special subforum.


I reply : I don't see any unfairness from the above passages.

why only women? There are a lot of men flirting or do bad things. Do you think it's fair if only men have that authority to treat women that way? Modern legal system believes in fairness and just, without seeing gender.



Find out the real face of Islam, read www. faithfreedom.org

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AF,

I reply : You may ask for various opinions. How can we kill someone for converting from Islam if there is a passage in Qur'an that says “There is no compulsion in religion.” ? You said that Qur'an is the highest authority in Islam.


Oh, don't you read me saying the concept of Nasakh? There are a later verse contradicting the verse of NO COMPULSION IN RELIGION.
Seeing the history, your prophet uttered the verse of no compulsion when he was in Mecca, weak. The verse that WE mentioned, 4:88-90, contradicted the verse and of course it was a later verse, because it was a Medinah verse.
Isn't it?
You asked me why I didn't mention the 90? Why should I? it didn't negate the fact that your Allah in Quran told you to kill apostates.

I reply : Well, you stated in your previous post like this…”You,….muslims.”. Is it only a Guess ? or are you a fortuneteller ?


So are you a moslem or not? I don't like being a fortune teller, but seeing your defence for Islam, I make a guess that you are. I only don't know if you are a Quran only or a Quran Hadiths. But my wild guessing is the second.
Mengapa mutar-mutar mas. Just say yes or no. Itu saja.



Find out the real face of Islam, read www. faithfreedom.org

searching
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After our discussion, we see there are a lot of difference between modern legal system and sharia, and I don't see why it should be applied, especially to those who are NOT moslems.

Searching


Find out the real face of Islam, read www. faithfreedom.org

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For readers:

Nasakh means "abrogation", since Allah in Quran abrogates some earlier verses with later "better verses".
Emoticon: Nooo

Searching


Find out the real face of Islam, read www. faithfreedom.org

AbahFairus
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Searching

So, LEGAL SYSTEM IS THE SYSTEM WHERE THE LAWS IS APPLIED TO THE SOCIETY. For Islamic Laws, it is Sharia. I wonder why you try to mix a thing that is so clear.
Read my explanation above. Islamic Laws are compiled and done and is called Sharia. But when I said ISLAMIC LAWS, I mean all the Islamic based laws (Quran, etc) and the legal system to apply that is Sharia for Islam. It is derived from Islamic culture and society, so NOT appliable for those who have different culture, i.e. NON moslems.


According to common understanding in mainstream Islam’s scholars, Sharia as a compilation of General principles is believed to be come from God. While Fiqih (Islamic laws) are Human ( mainly scholars) interpretations, suggestions, opinions of How God’s principles should be applied to deal with daily problems. This is a kind of deductive (general first then special) rather than inductive (special first then general). As The basic principles, Sharia in Islamic world is always the same at any time, any place, any group of Muslims. But Fiqih can be diifer from time to time, place to place, from one group to another.

As far as I’m concerned, some Fiqih can be unapplicable even to Muslims who do not agree with.
But Sharia principles, can be applicable since the general principles are mainly the same with modern (again, time is relative) principles.




AbahFairus
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Searching

Searching said : I don't mean "believe" that I believe it to be the highest authority FOR ME, but for islamic laws, or should we say Sharia.

I reply : It’s better to say FIQIH


And why Quran should be the highest authority? I hope you don't come with a mumbo jumbo that it's the word of God so it must be true.

I reply : For the sake of Logical consistency !
Let’s analyse these statements below.

1. They believe that Qur’an is From God
2. They believe that Qur’an is the only God’s last revelation for All of Human being until the end of the days.
3. They believe that God has sent down guidances for Human being since Adam
4. They believe that Qur’an is guidance

From those premises, it would very logical if Muslims take Qur’an as their highest source of Guidance.

It would be illogical for Muslims if they took, let’s say, Shakespearean’s writings as their highest authority, right ?




AbahFairus
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Searching

I wrote : Again, we can not apply any kind of punishment, if the society ( By democratic process) is not informed and aware.
This kind of law is a penal code or criminal law (fiqih) not sharia.

searching reply : But it is one of the punishment offered by Sharia LEGAL SYSTEM, isn't it?

I reply : But, Sharia legal system has given “a guideline” that any punishment can not applicable if the society is not informed and aware.

The most important thing in Sharia Legal system is THE SYSTEM itself, not the punishments, any kind of punishment.




AbahFairus
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Search

I reply : I agree with this one. I have to agree because I read some scientific facts that support this kind of practice. You may take a personal research on this.

So it is true. So if moslems don't want to eat pigs, why should Non moslem don't eat pigs?

I reply : We are not discussing dietary code or any personnel ethic or private laws right ?
What we are discussing are :
1. How Sharia principles can be applicable in modern era.
2. The difference between Sharia and Fiqih.
3. Why public laws can be applicable to a Heterogen society. If you were in America, and you commited a homicide. Wouldn’t you be tried by American law, even if you are not American ? If a society apply any kind of public law, like penal code. All of those who commit any Legal breaking actions can be tried by local Public law.




It's very PERSONAL and a personal choice. Don't say you want to bring the scientific facts from Harun Yahya or Ahmed Deedat.

I reply : That is the difference between Public law and Private law. You may ask any lawyer. And eating any kind of food is not considered as law, it was just ethic.

LOL………..There are so many scientific facts from non-muslim scientists that fit with Qur’anic teaching.

That’s why I don’t suggest you to go to any site I know. You are free to gain information from various sources. The keyword is various.




AbahFairus
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Search

I wrote : emphasizing for housekeeping is a kind of cultural thing than religious. The accurate one is emphasizing for family management.

search replied : Hm, but it's in Sharia LEGAL SYSTEM, isn't it?

I reply : Cultural and religious are different entities. Cultural is cultural, religious is religious. No, There is no such housekeeping emphasizing in Sharia.




AbahFairus
User
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Search,

I wrote : In Indonesian family court (pengadilan agama), it should be after a decree from judge.

Search replied : But we talk about WHEN Sharia Legal System is applied in Atceh or Indonesia. At the moment, we don't have Sharia Legal System just like in Malaysia.

I reply : Pengadilan agama or Indonesian Islamic Family court has been applying Sharia principles since it was founded. Indonesian Muslims have been adopted Sharia principles for their family laws for decades.
How can we use the name of Pengadilan Agama if it doesn’t apply Sharia principles.




AbahFairus
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Search,

But we are heading there, when people like you make justification this and that. Oh, it also happens in Pakistan, that men can divorce his wife by saying 3 times.

I reply :

I have to remind you that we are in a discussion session, please don’t just be moaning or directing your statement to anybody personally. What we discuss are IDEAS not PERSONAL.

As I said before, there are many interpretations on Islamic Laws including matrimonial law. I would be very un-democratic if interfere their Fiqih interpretations.




AbahFairus
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Search,


Clergy = imam, mas. Start trying tu quo que, huh? The Catholic doesn't apply Catholic Legal System, even to moslems residing in Vatican.

I reply : In Arabic, Imam means Leader. It can be applicable for any kind of Leader. The most well known is Imam in Prayer…….LOL.
Clergy has different meaning than Imam, Clergy means Ke-pendetaan. There is no Kependetaan In Islam, I’m so sure about this.

The main purpose of Catholicism church is to Lead Catholic all over the world in their Faith and internal Religious affair. I don’t think catholic church has some kind of Integrated Legal system like Islam does.




AbahFairus
User
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Search,

I wrote : Then you may ask various opinion from Islamic scholars.
Women are forbidden from working in the government ???? Well, there is a probability that some minority would conclude that women are forbidden from working in the government. I'm sure that this is not from qur'an nor reliable hadith.

Search replied : Hmm...it happened during Taliban Regime, as you know they applied purely from Quran and Hadiths. In Arab Saudi, women cannot drive cars, cannot meet with people without aulia, etc.

I reply : Then it was Talibanic cultural thing because no other Muslims recognize the law that women can not work with government. If You think Taliban apply anything purely from Qur’an or hadiths, can you show us which Qur’anic verses or hadith that say such thing ?

There is no passage in Qur’an or hadith that say women can not drive cars, or horses, or camels (any kind of vehicles). You should ask this kind of question to Saudi Arabian Lawyers ! I wouldn’t Blame Qur’an or hadith for this kind of rules.
Personally I want to ask this Question to Saudi Arabian, Are their women allowed to ride horses or ride bycicle ? LOL




AbahFairus
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Search,

She was a Business Woman and a Strong woman, even before marrying to your prophet.

I reply : And she was still businesswoman after marrying Muslims’ last prophet.




AbahFairus
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Search,

Scholar opinions VS Quran, which one will you choose ?

I reply :
Emotionally I would choose anything that I like. LOL
Rationally, As far as I know, Quran has shown enormous logical, rational, and scientifically passages that no one can not make anything nearly like it.




AbahFairus
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search


I wrote : There are different opinion on how men and women should cover their bodies.

search replied : But it does control how people dress, which is VERY different from modern approach that respect people's choice. What is wrong if a woman puts on a tennis outfit? or swimming outfit? Why should they swim in Burkha?

I reply : Then what’s wrong with Islamic tennis outfit, or Islamic swimming outfit ?
There is no such passage in Qur’an or hadith that says that women should swim in Burkha ? As I said before, Burkha is a bit cultural thing than religious.




AbahFairus
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Search

According to Sheikh Yusuf al-Qaradawi, head of the European Council for Fatwa and Research:

"If the husband senses that feelings of disobedience and rebelliousness are rising against him in his wife, he should try his best to rectify her attitude by kind words, gentle persuasion and reasoning with her. If this is not helpful, he should sleep apart from her, trying to awaken her agreeable feminine nature so that serenity may be restored, and she may respond to him in a harmonious fashion. If this approach fails, it is permissible for him to beat her lightly with his hands, avoiding her face and other sensitive parts. In no case should he resort to using a stick or any other instrument that might cause pain and injury. Rather, this 'beating' should be of the kind the Prophet (peace be on him) once mentioned to a disobedient maid-servant, when he said 'If it were not for the fear of retaliation on the Day of Resurrection, I would have beaten you with this miswak (tooth-cleaning twig)' [as reported by Ibn Majah, by Ibn Hibban in his Sahih, and by Ibn Sa`d in his Tabaqat].[8] [9]

I replied : I don't see any unfairness from the above passages.

search replied : Why only women? There are a lot of men flirting or do bad things. Do you think it's fair if only men have that authority to treat women that way? Modern legal system believes in fairness and just, without seeing gender.

I reply : Generally speaking, husband has stronger muscle power than wife.
Generally speaking again, there are some men (husband who have tendency to abuse their muscle power to their wives. In order to deal with this kind of husband. Qur’an has obliged Husband to take step by step approach in dealing with their wives. The step by step approach goal is to prevent women (wife) from being a victim of physical abuse with or without any cause..
The second goal of this passage is to grow a romantic side of husband.

Let’s analyse !

The first step is to rectify her attitude by kind word, gentle persuasion, and reasoning. Isn’t it a good thing to do this first step to wife ? I’m sure that majority of women will be touched by this act from their husband. In the end this will reduce the number of family physical abuse.

The second step is to sleep apart from her, and trying to awaken her feminine nature. I’m sure that the majority of women who was not touched by the first step will be touched by the second step. This second step in the end will further reduce family physical abuse. I would bet that more than 99 % of women would be touched by these two steps approach.

Now, the last step is to “Beat lightly”. The purpose of this third step is to prevent husband to use strong physical power to his wife. The only women who got the final step would be very minority.





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