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kiwimave
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The government insisted Tuesday that Muslims and non-Muslims alike in Nanggroe Aceh Darussalam should be tried by the planned Islamic Court in the predominantly Muslim province.

http://www.thejakartapost.com/(...)=20060426.A02&irec=3

Stupid bastards...Minister of Pro-Terrorism Yusril M is behind this stupid plan...

The end of Indonesia?


Gracias. Sama sama

Agung
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Religions should not be used in courts! Neither for believers or non-believers of that religion.

"The end of Indonesia?" Well that depends what you think Indonesia is. If you think Indonesia is a normal country with a justice system that treats people fair, then this is the end of it.

Poor, poor people of Aceh. Nothing is being spared for you. Emoticon: Nooo



sidia
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There are 3 laws in Indonesia : Hukum Adat , Hukum ex B.W , Hukum Agama .
Muslim province , Muslim people , Muslim law.
and Islamic Court .



Bisa dicek mas . http://omsid.multiply.com/

Agung
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The problem with hukum Agama is the interpretation of the religion as law. For the normal law book the interpretation is already difficult, although this book was wriiten as law. Religious books like the Koran were not written like law books, so depending on the judge there will be many interpretations...

So, this is not the law of God we have, but the law of a few old men with large beards.

(By the way, why look men like these often so much like a well known terrorist?) Emoticon: Confused



belgianguy
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how can an islamic court have jurisdiction over non-moslims? it's beyond me...luckily this is just local stuff, in aceh... if this would be introduced in the rest of indonesia, I would be out of here (because of my main hobby, adultery...I wouldn't like to get stoned)



Agung
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You don't have to be a Muslim for not liking adultery.....

Please, don't do something to others if you don't like it when other people do it to you!

Even after two glasses of bear you should be able to understand that.



AbahFairus
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Islamic court is a "Judicial Institution" which is a part of "Islamic Judicial system". Islamic Judicial system is a legal system that uses Islamic values.

Islamic basic values that should be used in an Islamic legal system are :

1. Society right over personal right.

This means that the rights of society should be considered first before considering the personal rights.

2. Step by step aproach of legal practising.

the first and most important aspect of Islamic legal system is educating people....the final and the least important is punishment.

3. Just and fair for all members of community.

There is no one can have special place in Law.

4. Actual proof from evidence and witness.

evidence and witness are important.

5. Punishment avoidance.

as the final and the least important aspect of Islamic system, punishment should be avoided as much as you can. Forgiving is better than punishing, but educating is the best of all.

Of course, Nangroe aceh darussalam, from my standpoint, is not the good example of how Islamic legal system should be held.




AbahFairus
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If it were right that Mr Yusril supports this plan, I don't see any logical thinking can conclude that Mr Yusril is a Pro-terrorism minister. There is no way to proof that Placing Islamic values on legal system is similar with supporting terrorism. Of course, I should give a chance to ones who don't agree with my statement to proof that Placing Islamic values on legal system has something to do with terrorism.

Regarding stoning for adultery.

Stoning is the highest punishment for adultery. Beside stoning, there are a few kind of punishments for adultery according to Islamic teaching. However, a I said before, punishment is the final (and should be avoided as we can) aspect of Islamic legal system. We can not practice the final step before practising all of the prior steps.
The first thing should be done by Aceh government is to educate their society (and people who come to aceh) that adultery, in an extreme condition, can lead a society into a Societal illness.



AbahFairus
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Interpretation is known and well accepted in many legal systems. regardless Islamic or non-Islamic.

The important thing is to be consistant to the basic phylosophy of certain law system itself. The most practical aspect of Islamic legal system may vary but the core stem is always the same.



Amadeus
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Abahfairus,

I feel I have to respond as an modern Indonesian muslim woman living in the Netherlands. According to me the sharia law is a very stupid oldfashioned law. I really hate to see that stupid fundamentalistic bastards are making a good and peacefull I believe in bad in the eyes of the nonmuslim.

How can you ever aprove stoning as punishment of adultry, and cutting of hands for thieves it really is discusting.



AbahFairus
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On 06-07-2006 19:36 Amadeus wrote:
Abahfairus,

I feel I have to respond as an modern Indonesian muslim woman living in the Netherlands. According to me the sharia law is a very stupid oldfashioned law. I really hate to see that stupid fundamentalistic bastards are making a good and peacefull I believe in bad in the eyes of the nonmuslim.

How can you ever aprove stoning as punishment of adultry, and cutting of hands for thieves it really is discusting.



* Thanks for your feeling ! Feeling can be a good reason to reply to other's posts. Emoticon: Smile

* What do you mean by "Modern Indonesian Muslim" ? Do you think there are still "Antique women" living in this era ? Emoticon: Smile I have a firm believe that Neanderthal, or pithecanthropus, or Australopithecus women had been extinct for thousand of years.

* I'm sure you are misunderstanding the meaning of the term "Sharia". Sharia, in my understanding, is a quite well competitive reliable "Legal system" compared to other Legal systems.

*Please re-read my posts above carefully ! I hope you would understand that I mentioned that Islamic Sharia is not a bunch of "Punishment methods".
Punishment method is a very "final" step In sharia, and should be avoided as hard as we can. Punishment method can be changed situationally.

* Would you like to make a further explanation why A Legal system that has reliable and fair characteristics, as I noted in my post, can be considered as old fashioned ?

*Don't you think that the characteristics of Sharia like : step by step approach, fair and just for all members of society, punishment avoiding, educational first, and evidence and witness proof based, are really MODERN ?

*I'm sure that every modern legal system have their own " Final punishment methods". You can see that Electric chair, gas chamber, lethal injection, hanging down, beheading are still practised and accepted in most countries in the world.

Key word : Sharia = Islamic legal system not a bunch of Criminal acts and associated punishments.



AbahFairus
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Stoning for adultery and cutting hands for thieves are the final method of punishments. There are gradual methods to punish or to educate "Wrong Doers".

The final method should be practised ONLY in an Extremely dangerous "Wrong activities".

I don't like the practise of stoning or cutting hands, And I'm sure that nobody likes that either, that is why I always Advocate my society from doing extreme "wrong doings" to avoid the practise of any final punishment.



kiwimave
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I think its a better plan to move forward out of the dark middle ages to a modern justice system based on human rights and respect for each other. How about a Sharia 2.0 in which Muslims modernize the whole Islamic law?

A lot has changed in the last 1400 years. I would be naieve to keep the same law all the time. In a new version there can be also punishment of "new" crimes like credit card fraud which is quite rampant in Islamic Indonesia. Im sure Mohammed would agree Emoticon: Shiny

And of course article 1 would be: respect all other human beings and dont consider a non-Muslim minor to Muslims.


Gracias. Sama sama

AbahFairus
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On 07-07-2006 12:41 kiwimave wrote:
I think its a better plan to move forward out of the dark middle ages to a modern justice system based on human rights and respect for each other. How about a Sharia 2.0 in which Muslims modernize the whole Islamic law?

A lot has changed in the last 1400 years. I would be naieve to keep the same law all the time. In a new version there can be also punishment of "new" crimes like credit card fraud which is quite rampant in Islamic Indonesia. Im sure Mohammed would agree Emoticon: Shiny

And of course article 1 would be: respect all other human beings and dont consider a non-Muslim minor to Muslims.


*We are already Living in a "Relatively" Modern world compared yo prophet Muhammad's era, right ? And I'm still amazed with the way Sharia shows Its compatibility with modern day values of how legal system should be, like I said in my old post.

*I would agree with you that we would be naive to keep the same law all the time. And I'm sure you would agree with me that It would be naive to Liken the term of "LAW" and "LEGAL SYSTEM".
The term Sharia is a kind of LEGAL SYSTEM instead of JUST law.
In my understanding, LAW is a set of rules dealing with specific area of Legal system. Emoticon: Smile

*In Islamic Legal system, law can be made by four methods :
- Qur'anic codification
- Hadiths codification
- Schollars decree
- reliable personal Interpretations

Schollars decree and reliable personal interpretation can be considered as Juriprudential subsystem of Islamic legal system. That's why Islamic law is able to deal with modern day issues such as Credit Card Fraud. And I'm sure Prophet Muhammad would agree with this. Emoticon: Smile

And remember that Islamic Criminal law and its all kind of punishments is just a small part of Islamic legal system.

*Your last statement has a great conformity with Islamic Value. Emoticon: Smile



AbahFairus
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Dear Kimimave,

What do you mean by Islamic Indonesia ? Are you saying that There are two Parts of Indonesia, Islamic Indonesia and Non-Islamic Indonesia ? Emoticon: Shiny

I'm really sure that some of the Indonesian carders are Non-Muslims, as well as their muslims compatriots. Emoticon: Yes!



AbahFairus
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On 26-04-2006 16:35 belgianguy wrote:
how can an islamic court have jurisdiction over non-moslims? its beyond me...luckily this is just local stuff, in aceh... if this would be introduced in the rest of indonesia, I would be out of here (because of my main hobby, adultery...I wouldnt like to get stoned)


Islamic Private court certainly has no jurisdiction over Non-Muslims. However, we can say another thing about Public law such as Criminal law. There is a prevalence that every Criminal laws in the world would not exclude a person who doesn't belong to the society. For example, If I (Indonesian) kill somebody in United states, There is a great probability that I would tried by US Criminal code instead of Indonesian code. Why ? because of the location. Eventhough Indonesia has an extradition agreement with US, The US Court and people would prefer to try me with their LAW. Remember when there was an american teenager sent to lashes in Singapore about ten years ago ?

The only way to avoid you from being stoned in an Islamic criminal law area is to delay your adultery until you reach other area or Do it very secretly.
There is condition in Islamic adultery law that anybody can be sentenced to stoning if the Doer is or had been married. And there should be at least for witnesses.

Well ! If you were stoned for commiting adultery you must be an Exhibitionist. How can more than four people saw you if you're not an exhibitionist, right ? Emoticon: Yes!



sidia
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On 07-07-2006 15:03 AbahFairus wrote:

...


How can more than four people saw you if youre not an exhibitionist, right ? Emoticon: Yes!


Wah jadi Emoticon: Shut up! Emoticon: Shut up! Emoticon: Shut up!


Bisa dicek mas . http://omsid.multiply.com/

kiwimave
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On 07-07-2006 15:03 AbahFairus wrote:

...


I
The only way to avoid you from being stoned in an Islamic criminal law area is to delay your adultery until you reach other area or Do it very secretly.
There is condition in Islamic adultery law that anybody can be sentenced to stoning if the Doer is or had been married. And there should be at least for witnesses.


Its just a feeling but to me it seems adultery happens as much or even more in Islamic countries like Indonesia and Saoudi Arabia then in the West? Most of my friends in Indonesia have fathers who are not loyal to their wife. Does it have anything to do with the way men value women in those societies? It's probably a good idea to give men and women equal value and equal rights in those societies and not just see them as sex objects you should completely cover with scarf or burqa Emoticon: Yes!


Gracias. Sama sama

AbahFairus
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On 07-07-2006 23:10 sidia wrote:

...


Wah jadi Emoticon: Shut up! Emoticon: Shut up! Emoticon: Shut up!



Sssssssttt.............jangan bilang siapa-siapa ! Emoticon: Shiny



sidia
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On 08-07-2006 09:11 kiwimave wrote:

...


Its just a feeling but to me it seems adultery happens as much or even more in Islamic countries like Indonesia and Saoudi Arabia then in the West?

Most of my friends in Indonesia have fathers who are not loyal to their wife.

Its probably a good idea to give men and women equal value and equal rights in those societies


Removed to prevent your adress from being spammed. Click this to go to the user profile. Om Kiwi :

* a feeling or do you have some figures ?
In holland seems that the reason for divorces is adultery (33,333%)
(Oftewel 1 op 3 wat bekend is .Wat niet bekend is ? .Dat weet alleen maar onze lieve god en de overspelplegers zelf).

* Yes , Mostly of yr friends .

*Sharia dont make a difference between man and woman.


Bisa dicek mas . http://omsid.multiply.com/

AbahFairus
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Kimi wrote : Its just a feeling but to me it seems adultery happens as much or even more in Islamic countries like Indonesia and Saoudi Arabia then in the West?

My reply : Nothing more than feeling ? 

If you have any statistical proof, we wouldn’t mind to see it. Emoticon: Very funny

Kimi wrote : Most of my friends in Indonesia have fathers who are not loyal to their wife.

My reply : I’m sorry to hear that. Really.
Could you be more specific ? is it including the practice of adultery or not ? or is it just their fathers have a dream to be with another woman ?
If it is including the practice of adultery, how your friends know that ? Do their father have sex with another woman in front of their children ?


Kimi wrote : Does it have anything to do with the way men value women in those societies?

I reply : Your question can only be answered if we have had reliable statistical proof about this. If not, it would be only a speculation.


Kimi wrote : It's probably a good idea to give men and women equal value and equal rights in those societies

I reply : According to Islamic teaching, men and women do have equal value and rights. This is also true for the relationship of husband and wife. Of course, as a husband, a man has specific obligations and rights. On the other hand a wife has her own specific obligations and rights. If we put them in weighing. We would see that Both sexes’ obligations and rights are equal though are not exactly identical.

Kimi wrote : and not just see them as sex objects you should completely cover with scarf or burqa

I reply :
There is no obligation to wear scarf or burqa in Islam. Women are just appealed to be modest in clothing.
The wearing of scarf has been known in the middle east long before Islam’s era. While Burqa was an influence of Christian Byzanthium women’s fashion.  You can do some internet researchs on this.

I know that human being are all born without clothing, so it is very natural to be nude. If all societies in the world agree to accept nudity as global morality, I wouldn’t mind to not wear anything in public. However, There are millions of Clothing related workers would loose their job. This situation can be dangerous for economic and social life on earth’s surface. Emoticon: Very funny

If just all of men in the world only see all women as sex object. They would prefer to see all of women in the world wearing Bikini than modestly Covered by scarf, burqa, jilbab, hijab, muslima dress, or whatever, right ?

The logical reason of modestly covered in Islamic teaching is to minimize women from being seen as SEX object only. I can’t think of any logical reason to support that by wearing bikini, women will free from being seen as sexual object.




AnisJ
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Hormat s.mua yth.,

Is this pre-Sharia ......... or what ???
But I am able to state this easily, as a christian; but what about our Islamatic friends on this forum, what do they personily about this situation.
"In case of misunderstanding, personily I also do not believe in Christian fundamentalism either ........"
So silahkan ....... reaksi .......
What about the 'national garantee' of the 'Panca Sila consept' .......


'Ahu kura ahia, mansia nia'

AbahFairus
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Keyword :

Sharia = legal system

Fiqh = law

Emoticon: Smile



AnisJ
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On 08-07-2006 11:37 AbahFairus wrote:
Keyword :

Sharia = legal system

Fiqh = law

Emoticon: Smile


"What about 'munafiqh' .......


'Ahu kura ahia, mansia nia'

AbahFairus
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On 08-07-2006 11:38 AnisJ wrote:

...


"What about munafiqh .......



In Arabic and other semitic languages, words forming is based on the basic root of three vowels.

The word Fiqh or fikih in Indonesian spelling system is come from the root F-K-H. While The word Munafik is formed by adding the prefik mu to the root N-F-K.






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