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bernt
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Normally we (our three children, my Indonesian wife and myself being a dutchman, sorry no white hair) live in Holland but now we're staying in Indonesia for six months on social family visum. If I alone want to return to Holland can the children with dutch nationality stay with the mother without leaving the country first? Can they stay all the time with the mother or do we have to do somthing special?
So my wife wants to stay in Indonesia with the children but I have to go back (and don't want to stay bacause no future here). My first topic ( I read already a long time here ) and already a difficult question for me.



Tuti & Jan
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No, they have the same law as you as Dutchman, they need also a social budaya wit extension each month after 60 days, after 6 months they have to leave the country, same as yourself.
Please make the same topic in Dutch Langues, in English a topic like this is to diffecult for me.
The first Januari changed many laws about that.
Jan



JohanN
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Bernt, is je vrouw nog indonesisch? Wil zij terug naar Nederland? Let op wat je doet als je je kinderen achterlaat. Ik heb er geen verstand van en geen ervaring mee, maar ik krijg kippevel als ik je topic lees. Hoe oud zijn de kids?
Groet, Johan


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kiwimave
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What's the percentage of all mixed couples (dutch guy, indo girl) ending up in a divorce? Is it significantly higher than between ppl of the same race/culture/country?


Gracias. Sama sama

sidia
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try to get info :
http://www.indo-mc.com
e-mail : info Removed to prevent your adress from being spammed. Click this to go to the user profile.indo-mc.com
phone 62-21-5671304
fax: 62.21-5672285
(Indonesian mix couple organisation.)
or see Undang2 Kewarganegaraan & Undang2 Keimigrasian.
especially : Perkawinan Campuran .


Bisa dicek mas . http://omsid.multiply.com/

bernt
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My wife has the Indonesian nationality. Our three kids are still young between 1 and 5. My wife is obviously more happy here with her family. If she wants to stay in Indonesia with the children then it has to be now when they are still small.
And for the good understanding we do not want to divorce, we have no fights or whatever. She is just more happy in Indonesia and for me it's not possible to stay here (no work in Indonesia......). It already difficult. Do I want tohave a wife that is unhappy back home or one that is happy here. For me it's difficult to live with the tought that she's not happy and only stays because of me. On the other hand I don't have to tell that it's also very difficult not seeing my children then anymore. At the moment I am very very confused. She already tried more then five years to be happy in Holland. Most of the time it's ok but it still remains. But the one thing that she's missing most, is her family and friends. Life in Holland is different.



Yogya-Bali
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On 07-01-2006 12:30 kiwimave wrote:
Whats the percentage of all mixed couples (dutch guy, indo girl) ending up in a divorce? Is it significantly higher than between ppl of the same race/culture/country?


More than 50%. Definitely much higher than between ppl of same culture. But with culture here I don't mean ethnic culture. I have seen a lot of good relationships of more than 30 years long between Dutch and Indonesian cause they have more or less the same educational background and therefore in fact the same culture. Culture is nog bound by borders of a nation only but also bound by the same beackground. And this can mean also educational background, city or rural background, etc.
Problem is that most of the mixed couples are based on a unequal relation between a "have" and a "have-not"; not the same educational background, not the same social position, not the same financial position, etc.
So, don't fool your self by staring at the dirfference in ethnic background, but rather in educational background.



Yogya-Bali
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On 07-01-2006 11:03 bernt wrote:
If I alone want to return to Holland can the children with dutch nationality stay with the mother without leaving the country first? Can they stay all the time with the mother or do we have to do somthing special?


Probably after a while she can apply for a stay permit (KITAS) for the kids but they have to go out of the country first. Check it with the local immigration. Gonna cost you a lot of money when they smell money from a bule-pocket/wallet.



Yogya-Bali
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On 08-01-2006 15:23 bernt wrote:

And for the good understanding we do not want to divorce, we have no fights or whatever. She is just more happy in Indonesia and for me its not possible to stay here (no work in Indonesia......).
She already tried more then five years to be happy in Holland. Most of the time its ok but it still remains. But the one thing that shes missing most, is her family and friends. Life in Holland is different.


Although you don't want to end up in a divorce, there's definitely something wrong with your relationship. It seems that her family in Indonesia is more important for your wife than you and (the future of) the kids. It comes over to me as a very simple and egoistic way of thinking. Your situation is a mess.
Anyway, probably it helps when you start to look at the point why she isn't happy in Holland (I can imagine!!). Is she a rural girl and moved to a big city in Holland or the opposite (moved from a big city in Indonesia to a small rural boring village in Holland)? These are often reasons why people cannot adopt to a certain situation. Does she feel less or more in Holland than others (the social stratification)?



Erik_
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On 09-01-2006 11:47 Yogya-Bali wrote:

...

Anyway, probably it helps when you start to look at the point why she isnt happy in Holland


What about:
cold climate for at least 6 months/year, indoor culture, expensive to go out (no quick bites in a warung), rather coldhearted/egocentric relationships amongst people, loss of own family and friends, not being able to find a babysit for the kids so going out together at night is seldom possible, not being able to pursue career goals to their fullest extend because of the language barrier, etc.

Unfortunately I know from me and my wife's own experience and I know there are a lot more out there. I wish you all the best Bernt!



bernt
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Thank you Erik_ for understanding the problem. We're looking for solutions not judgement. That we get enough.
My wife is educated (in languages) and comes from one of the biggest cities in Indonesia. She knew already something of the world before we met (internet...).
In Holland she works (part time) and does a lot of stuff on her own or we friends. But nothing compares with spending time together with her family.
Am I not worried about the future of the kids in terms as schooling, education.... She is a very good mother and she has a lot of family to help. All educated people.
So where do we go from here?



sidia
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On 14-01-2006 06:49 bernt wrote:

Am I not worried about the future of the kids in terms as schooling, education....
has a lot of family to help. All educated people.

So where do we go from here?


You must be worried, because only the best can survive.
It is very difficult to get a good school .
In Holland everyone can go to the University.

There is a diff. between Besar Keluarganya and something like Keluarga Besar .(possibilty to network).

Try to read / study the Indonesian Law.




Bisa dicek mas . http://omsid.multiply.com/

Iris8
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Hello Bernt,

I am a Dutch women living almost 5 months in Indonesia with my family. I know how difficult it is to live in between two countries with small children. I know how difficult your options for work in Indonesia, unless you can invest in your own business and be succesfull in that.
I don't judge you or your wife.... but what about the kids????? What if you leave without them?? You are their dad!!! If I look at my kids, after such a short time in Indonesia it is also still a big change for them. Their parents is the only steady part in their lives, that is why they seem to deal more easy with all the changes. Reading your story their are born in Holland so how would it be for them to miss their father and live in a new country?? They need you as much as mummy! What about their future in Indonesia? I think that both of you should first look at what is important for your children and then look at how you settle things. When you both married, settled in Holland and made babies you took a responsability towards eachother and towards your children. I do understand that your wife feels unhappy in Holland, but if that is were the money can be earned.....?! She can have holidays in Indonesia and when the children are big return to her family.
I know her feeling.... I am far from my friends and family, but no matter what .... children first!!! We are grown up and are able to take care of ourselves, the littles ones not. If financially it is impossible to stay in Indonesia, I would say to her....get over it, you made choices in life, deal with it.
If you really are a loving father, I can't imagine you even consider to make this move, you will be soooo miserable and your bonding with your children will be changed for life.

If you did make up your mind and want to return alone, did you already check at the immigration office what they advise??? Can't they get a KITAS (staying permit) based on staying with their mother??!

Good luck and lots of wisedom.
Iris



Agung
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Hi Bernt,
maybe you should remind your wife that it is normal in Indonesia for a woman to follow her husband, also if she doesn't like to follow him. As a matter of fact this is the reasson that you're not able to get a permit to stay in Indonesia.

Good luck,

A.A.



hobo1
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Bernt,
I sincerely wish there were a legal way for you to solve this problem. Having been through a situation where I was forced to seek a multitude of opinions on an immigration issue, I am afraid there is no legal way out for you - at least in Indonesia.
I must agree with Iris8, if your wife looks at what is best for the family, she must settle herself with living in Holland as a wife with her children - and content to see her family and friends on visits.
Have you considered trying to bring back one or more of the family members to Holland with you? I hire three of my wife's family as "maids", but they are really more as company for my wife and children. If you can't bring your wife and children to Indonesia, then bring Indonesia to them!!


Hideaway Bungalow in Kuta Lombok - check my homepage

VECTRA
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Hello Bernt,

First of all I'm deeply sorry of your situation. I know how it feels having a partner from Indonesia that still longing for living in Indonesia. It's really confusing situation for both of you, I assume. I think the core of the problems is exactly the family of your wife. Have you ever asked your wife if she under the pressure of her family? I mean, I know that Indonesian family used to think that everybody needs to be in one roof. They don't like if any family member live in foreign country, they need Euro's, they just need to have your wife around them. So, i think the best way is talk to her family or her parents and explain that they need to let her go and build her with you.

And you can help her of course by looking together for Indonesian group in NL, and try to introduce her the "friends" that she missed, eventhough they speak Indonesian mix with Dutch. But at least she doesn't have to lost 100 % of her Indonesian life.



VECTRA
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Hello Bernt,

First of all I'm deeply sorry of your situation. I know how it feels having a partner from Indonesia that still longing for living in Indonesia. It's really confusing situation for both of you, I assume. I think the core of the problems is exactly the family of your wife. Have you ever asked your wife if she under the pressure of her family? I mean, I know that Indonesian family used to think that everybody needs to be in one roof. They don't like if any family member live in foreign country, they need Euro's, they just need to have your wife around them. So, i think the best way is talk to her family or her parents and explain that they need to let her go and build her with you.

And you can help her of course by looking together for Indonesian group in NL, and try to introduce her the "friends" that she missed, eventhough they speak Indonesian mix with Dutch. But at least she doesn't have to lost 100 % of her Indonesian life.



Yogya-Bali
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On 14-01-2006 06:49 bernt wrote:
Thank you Erik_ for understanding the problem. Were looking for solutions not judgement. That we get enough.
My wife is educated (in languages) and comes from one of the biggest cities in Indonesia. She knew already something of the world before we met (internet...).


Bernt, if your wife is well-educated, coming from one of the biggest cities and her family are all educate people, how does it come that they are acting in such a simplistic “kampungan” and irresponsible way towards the children and you?

You said you’re not looking for judgement but for solutions; well one solution is how to figure it out so that everybody in your family will be happy. The solution you’re now looking for will likely to become a catastrophe for you and your children. Previously I had a similar situation but was very happy that my child eventually moved to Holland with his mother instead of staying and having school over here. I am now stucked with 2 children here and the future isn’t bright for them, concerning education; especially not for children of mixed marriage. They’re not facing a nice future. Although a lot of people think that “blasteran” are privileged; well forget it, reality is the opposite unless you have a lot, lot of money. And then still it is not real but a bought and fictitious “reality” which will directly fade away as soon as there’s no money available anymore. It is well possible that this counts also for your family-in-law.

Legal your children are even not allowed to go to an Indonesian school as a “WNA”. They only are permitted to study at an international school. The quality of a lot of these so-called international schools are doubtful; it is more about status then about quality; especially in towns like Yogyakarta or Semarang. If it was for free I wouldn’t let my children go to an international school.
Apart from all this, it will be a hustle everytime with the children’s stay permit. Also your wife will lose the legitimacy of her stay permit for Holland when she’s out of the country for more then 8 months. At the moment you start regretting your decision it will not be possible anymore to take your wife immediately with you back to Holland. You have to go through the entire IND-procedure again.

Practical seen about the stay-permit, I already answered you here above. A good advice is also the one of Iris.





sidia
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On 17-01-2006 06:21 Yogya-Bali wrote:

...


*Although a lot of people think that “blasteran” are privileged; well forget it, reality is the opposite unless you have a lot, lot of money. And then still it is not real but a bought and fictitious “reality” which will directly fade away as soon as there’s no money available anymore.

*Legal your children are even not allowed to go to an Indonesian school as a “WNA”. They only are permitted to study at an international school.

*Apart from all this, it will be a hustle everytime with the children’s stay permit.

*Also your wife will lose the legitimacy of her stay permit for Holland when she’s out of the country for more then 8 months.


*It's True



Bisa dicek mas . http://omsid.multiply.com/

bernt
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As we think a lot over this there is a another reason for me why we eneded up this way. The whole time we are here in Indonesia and spend most of the time with her family, she spends a lot of time with her family. We live together but next to eachother. There is no time for communication. We only say the necessary things. Already a few monhts we live together with our three children and have no time of our own. Maybe if we spend time together we`ll see things more clear. Stlli I`m very confused. But when I look at my (specially the youngest one) children, I get tears in my eyes. So now we`re looking for a nanny so that we have more time for eachoter and for ourselves individually. And maybe after a while she sees `again` the good things of Holland (she has a job, she has friends, we can live good.....). It`s always a difficult time when we just arrive back in Holland after staying in Indonesia.
I`m also very surprised about what you wrote about mixed children and the schooling in Indonesia. Thank you for that. I did not now.
I just have to think now that when we met she worked in a different cities then her parents home to be not dependent and to close all the time in the neighborhood of her family althuogh they love eachother very much. Emoticon: Confused
We have to think and think. Thank you for give me some foof for thuoghts.



JohanN
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Bernt, I´m very sorry for you, and it gives me the creaps. Your situation is quite desperate and my question is: how did you fall into this?
I can not imagine that this situation will happen to me.
First of all, the family of my girlfriend will ´kick her butt´ while saying ´pulang ke Belanda´. This is not a matter of education but a matter of rational thinking;
Secondly, I will ´kick her butt´ if she does not take care of the children, or what I mean, will only see her own misery and longing to Indonesia;
Third and the most important one, she will kick my butt for being a sissy and not taking action (maybe that is what your wife wants and needs... Emoticon: Wink )
Regards, Johan


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Agung
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On 18-01-2006 15:18 bernt wrote:
.........she spends a lot of time with her family. We live together but next to eachother. There is no time for communication. We only say the necessary things.......
Hi Bernt,
this is obviously not only a "immigration issue". I think that you'll have to solve the "no time for communication"-issue first. For solving the problems you will need a lot of serious communication with your wife. Separate her from the family should be a first step.



Yogya-Bali
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On 18-01-2006 15:18 bernt wrote:
The whole time we are here in Indonesia and spend most of the time with her family, she spends a lot of time with her family. We live together but next to eachother. There is no time for communication. We only say the necessary things.


I've had this problem before; family (-in-law) can be enjoying but also annoying. One of my former relations failed because of the lack of privacy and the interference of my family-in-law with our relation and the upbringing/ education of my son. Kick their ash and show that you are the one in charge. That's the way Indonesian men would do and that is probably what they are expecting from you. Show some guts: these are your children and she is your wife. And you have the right for a normal family life with your kids and wife.
Go visit some other town with your wife alone for a couple of days and refuse any family member to join you. I hope it will work out for good.




sidia
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On 20-01-2006 10:54 Yogya-Bali wrote:

...


Kick their ash and show that you are the one in charge.

Thats the way Indonesian men would do and that is probably what they are expecting from you.

Show some guts: these are your children and she is your wife. And you have the right for a normal family life with your kids and wife.


* Baas in eigen huis.?
And they kick you out too .
* Depend the lingkungan and education.
* True.


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Hey Bernt, One side I fully understand why your wife wanna go back to Indonesia. I recognise this situation with myself. I stay now 6 years in Holland, when I came to Holland I gave up my Notaris study in UI, which I finished half way. First 2 years in holland was really a nightmare, not only for me but also for my husband. I cried often because I wanna go back, our relation became unstable. My husband felt guilty he took me here. Then in 2001 our first daughter was born, since then I feel a bit better, I start to find work, and I worked as cleaning service in Corus, Mc'Donalds and catering company as a productionworker. Actually is quite painful for me, when you've got a good education in your country but then you must accept work like that because you don't speak good dutch. And our second daughter was born, I just feel better and better, I much more accept things. Moving to Indonesia is still my dream, but my family still important. I don't wanna take our children away from their father. Moving to Indonesia is not that simple, it looks simple but it is not, specially when children are involved. And my husband still has difficulty to find work in Ind. (but I can find work in Holland, I work now 3 days/week as adm.emply.).
I miss my family, I miss my friends, but when we went 2 years ago for vacation, I realised it's not the same anymore, something changed. I have plenty friends in Holland, it helps. Specially we do a lot of nice things.
I don't want to give you any judgement, but if your wife want to stay in Indonesia, and you stay in holland, better you divorce. Sounds not nice to hear, but facing the reality, facing the risk is also difficult. You like it or not, you must sacrifice something in marriage life, doesn't matter coming from who, from you, your wife or both.
I wish you luck, Bernt.





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