indahnesia.com - Discover Indonesia Online

    
You are currently in > Forum > In the news > View topic

17-01-2015 18:16 · [news] Three more bodies of AirAsia victims to Surabaya hospital  (1 reaction)
17-01-2015 01:23 · [news] Fuel prices lowered, again  (2 reactions)
17-01-2015 00:14 · [news] President dismisses Sutarman as national police chief  (0 reactions)
16-01-2015 12:44 · [news] Alleged terrorists shot dead three villagers in Poso  (3 reactions)
16-01-2015 02:15 · [news] Indonesia to execute six drug convicts  (0 reactions)

principe
User
spacer line
 

to searching:

funny, may be we don’t read the same kompas.

ofcourse we do

yesterday kompas (31 oct) that i read (in the first page) told me that the group of terrors in that area is not yet to find, that the people there have lost trust to the police.
the story also said that it was suspected the doers come from outside of the area.
you may check it.

i take it for granted

and where is your source, if i may ask?

the new york times ran an article on october 30, 2005 with the title "masked men decapitate 3 schoolgirls in indonesia". the story was taken form reuters news desk.

and mr. detective, think with your brain why it is always the christians to be the victims. if those coker really wants to fuel a riot, just kill moslems and surely there will be a riot and laskar jihad will surely take out their hidden ammunitions.

i am not a dectective and do not pretend to be one, though i am a researcher and i do know how to handle sources using my brain. it is a most vital part of any research, thank you.

as far as the secterian violence of maluku is concerned between 1999 up till today many reports tend to suggest that christians defended their turf and mostly inbound muslim extremists were the attacking party besides other usual suspects.

i belief this is very true based on simple geographical and ethnicity facts alone. christian villages did retaliate however and caused casualties among muslim inbound fighters as well as local muslim commnuties. in the spiral of violence that followed often the agressor and the victim became blurred. nevertheless it is obvious that outside muslim extremists aggrevated the situation as agressors in maluku. if you look for who struck first blood than the answer is as endless as history can reach.

when i was in maluku in 2000 (one of my many visits as i have a business running in the bay of piru, west seram) i stayed in my usual hotel manise and christian gangs were sweeping the area around the hotel in search of muslims. they entered the premises and asked about possible muslim guests and/or staff. we know for a fact that some staff was muslim but the management managed to hide their identity. the left the building and a few 100 meters further they slaughtered three muslims that were unlucky enough not to hide in time. the were left bleeding on the street. two of them died of their wounds i was told.

but the whole idea for those in charge of the grand scenario seemed to be keeping a balance between both parties in terms of “turf given and turf taken”. there was a strange kind of understanding among several soldiers to act ones a certain line was crossed and to let massacres just unfold within invisible designated lines.

very interesting is the fact that the military was very capable of fending off the pertamina depots in wayame and the australian burial site. a very effective parimeter was put in place for that purpose. clearly that showed a well coordinated effort by the military. they could not afford to loose oil nor international intervention but lifes...they counted for less than chickens. and those were to be sacrificed.

there was much more than the naked eye could see espescially when your only reference are news reports. but a slightest detail in the framework is very visible to the insiders, the local population. a simple road block could trigger huge amounts of logistical consequences and trigger riots in villages that were sparred before and so on...

i am saying this to put the soya massacre in perspective and invite you not to underestimate military covert operations in this country. it may be interesting to read the interviews and police reports and the history and more about coker and maluku in general.

maybe you would like to delve in the endless sources provided by http://www.malra.org/posko/

it is worth the time and enriches the brain.
MODERATOR BREAK

Can you please NOT use all caps? It's very impolite and looks like screaming as well. It is generally not appreciated on forums. Your text has been converted to all small text now. You can also read the FAQ if you want to know more.

Placed by Jeroen @ 02-11-2005 15:10




principe
User
spacer line
 


On 01-11-2005 09:33 sidia wrote:

...


Mr Principe
Faith is Faith .
And is a very very sensitive issue to discuss.
To me (personal) there is a no diff. between the God of israel (jews) , The God of Christian (the early jw.christians , other churchs , and later the Roman Catholic , the protestant etc etc) and the God of the Muslim.

My (personal) interpretation is :
a. the same basic/source : the childeren of Abraham .
b. monotheism , only one god (acc the O.T,NT . Al Quran)

Abt the christian :the only diff. between R.C.C. and P.C is the interpretation of the bible.
They have the same basic .
From Saulus to Rabbi J and Abraham .

see Matthew 4.10 :
For it is written : Worship the Lord your God , and serve him only.
see Matthew 5: 17-18 :
Dont think that I have come to abolish the Law of the Prophets ---etc etc .






I share your personal view. And although christians see their religion as monotheistic, non christians have a hard time grasping the notion of the holy trinity, suspecting this is exactly a polytheistic feature. As such this view cannot accomodate the notion of one and the same god of all the people of the book.



mashil
User
User icon of mashil
spacer line
 

pfffffffffffffffffffff

Emoticon:


- Let us live simply so that others may simply live -

searching
User
spacer line
 


I AM NOT A DECTECTIVE AND DO NOT PRETEND TO BE ONE, THOUGH I AM A RESEARCHER AND I DO KNOW HOW TO HANDLE SOURCES USING MY BRAIN. IT IS A MOST VITAL PART OF ANY RESEARCH, THANK YOU.


Good that you are using your brain then. But having facts and organize it with your brain, you cannot escape SUBJECTIVITY, especially when you have something (experience, sameness in religion etc). That's why many researchers used STATISTICS before coming to conclusion. Or am I wrong?


WHEN I WAS IN MALUKU IN 2000 (ONE OF MY MANY VISITS AS I HAVE A BUSINESS RUNNING IN THE BAY OF PIRU, WEST SERAM) I STAYED IN MY USUAL HOTEL MANISE AND CHRISTIAN GANGS WERE SWEEPING THE AREA AROUND THE HOTEL IN SEARCH OF MUSLIMS. THEY ENTERED THE PREMISES AND ASKED ABOUT POSSIBLE MUSLIM GUESTS AND/OR STAFF. WE KNOW FOR A FACT THAT SOME STAFF WAS MUSLIM BUT THE MANAGEMENT MANAGED TO HIDE THEIR IDENTITY. THE LEFT THE BUILDING AND A FEW 100 METERS FURTHER THEY SLAUGHTERED THREE MUSLIMS THAT WERE UNLUCKY ENOUGH NOT TO HIDE IN TIME. THE WERE LEFT BLEEDING ON THE STREET. TWO OF THEM DIED OF THEIR WOUNDS I WAS TOLD.


I don't say they are good. THEY are evil. But that indicates that THE CHRISTIAN GROUPS must look for their ENEMY and vice verse. Or Am I wrong here? And what DOES the other GROUPS do? May be you have ever heard the slogan: PILIH KEPALA ATAS ATAU KEPALA BAWAH. I hope you understand what I mean, with your ability to research.


BUT THE WHOLE IDEA FOR THOSE IN CHARGE OF THE GRAND SCENARIO SEEMED TO BE KEEPING A BALANCE BETWEEN BOTH PARTIES IN TERMS OF “TURF GIVEN AND TURF TAKEN”. THERE WAS A STRANGE KIND OF UNDERSTANDING AMONG SEVERAL SOLDIERS TO ACT ONES A CERTAIN LINE WAS CROSSED AND TO LET MASSACRES JUST UNFOLD WITHIN INVISIBLE DESIGNATED LINES.

VERY INTERESTING IS THE FACT THAT THE MILITARY WAS VERY CAPABLE OF FENDING OFF THE PERTAMINA DEPOTS IN WAYAME AND THE AUSTRALIAN BURIAL SITE. A VERY EFFECTIVE PARIMETER WAS PUT IN PLACE FOR THAT PURPOSE. CLEARLY THAT SHOWED A WELL COORDINATED EFFORT BY THE MILITARY. THEY COULD NOT AFFORD TO LOOSE OIL NOR INTERNATIONAL INTERVENTION BUT LIFES...THEY COUNTED FOR LESS THAN CHICKENS. AND THOSE WERE TO BE SACRIFICED.


Are we talking of facts or talking about assumtions? I hope as a researcher you can at least make the subjectivity into minimum. Or are you a researcher for Gossip Magazine?


VERY INTERESTING IS THE FACT THAT THE MILITARY WAS VERY CAPABLE OF FENDING OFF THE PERTAMINA DEPOTS IN WAYAME AND THE AUSTRALIAN BURIAL SITE. A VERY EFFECTIVE PARIMETER WAS PUT IN PLACE FOR THAT PURPOSE. CLEARLY THAT SHOWED A WELL COORDINATED EFFORT BY THE MILITARY. THEY COULD NOT AFFORD TO LOOSE OIL NOR INTERNATIONAL INTERVENTION BUT LIFES...THEY COUNTED FOR LESS THAN CHICKENS. AND THOSE WERE TO BE SACRIFICED.

THERE WAS MUCH MORE THAN THE NAKED EYE COULD SEE ESPESCIALLY WHEN YOUR ONLY REFERENCE ARE NEWS REPORTS. BUT A SLIGHTEST DETAIL IN THE FRAMEWORK IS VERY VISIBLE TO THE INSIDERS, THE LOCAL POPULATION. A SIMPLE ROAD BLOCK COULD TRIGGER HUGE AMOUNTS OF LOGISTICAL CONSEQUENCES AND TRIGGER RIOTS IN VILLAGES THAT WERE SPARRED BEFORE AND SO ON...

I AM SAYING THIS TO PUT THE SOYA MASSACRE IN PERSPECTIVE AND INVITE YOU NOT TO UNDERESTIMATE MILITARY COVERT OPERATIONS IN THIS COUNTRY. IT MAY BE INTERESTING TO READ THE INTERVIEWS AND POLICE REPORTS AND THE HISTORY AND MORE ABOUT COKER AND MALUKU IN GENERAL.


I don't want to read much, don't have time for that. I just want your TRUSTED source that SAY EXACTLY that THE COKER was behind the teror in Soya. Everyone can make assumption - even we can doubt the Newspapers, but at least I will know that I don't spend my time listening to your ASSUMPTIONS.
And I will respect if you don't write all in BIG LETTERS. BIG LETTERS are only used to emphasize.

And SIDIA, once again (and only for ONCE) I will tell you TWO WRONGS DON'T MAKE ONE RIGHT.

I will give you an analogy so your noodle can accept that!
If I killed someone, then when people accused me of murdering, I pointed at you and said "But SIDIA is a killer too." Does that mean I was innocent?



Find out the real face of Islam, read www. faithfreedom.org

principe
User
spacer line
 

[quote] On 02-11-2005 15:02 searching wrote:

...



You are wrong, researchers analyse. Depending on the subject statistics can be of use. But how do you convert a police account or interview in statistics ? Maybe you mix science with research and analysis. Assumptions are very often used in analysis. In fact any form of deduction is based on assumptions. Facts often form the basis of the sample of deduction. There are many ways of analysing reports. And I am indeed very much trying to be subjective. in fact, I am giving my personal opinion. You can not ask for more subjectivity.

[

I dont say they are good. THEY are evil. But that indicates that THE CHRISTIAN GROUPS must look for their ENEMY and vice verse. Or Am I wrong here? And what DOES the other GROUPS do? May be you have ever heard the slogan: PILIH KEPALA ATAS ATAU KEPALA BAWAH. I hope you understand what I mean, with your ability to research.


No I do not, in fact I do not understand your emotional replies. Please enlighten me.

Are we talking of facts or talking about assumtions? I hope as a researcher you can at least make the subjectivity into minimum. Or are you a researcher for Gossip Magazine?

I am talking facts as presented to me through different source ( I tried to give you an interesting link, but you have to spare the time to really read them one by one, like I do) and a tentative analysis based on these fact including my assumptions. And as I wrote before
in my first posting in this forum "....any scenario or combination of it may be valid"
I remember I asked you whether you really read what I wrote. Because besides the above I also clearly stated that: "...NArrowing in on the possible perpetrators IN MY OPINION....."

I hope you understand that some accounts were presented and I gave my personal analysis (just my insight) that can be in the end very far from the mark. But you seem to react pretty agitated for me expressing my opinion. I wonder why ?


I dont want to read much, dont have time for that. I just want your TRUSTED source that SAY EXACTLY that THE COKER was behind the teror in Soya.

According to reports the coker gang first told they were carrying out many dirty attacks for Kopassus. This is the initial police statement. Later they retracted the statement stating they were coerced and forced to sign on blank papers after being tortured. Different witnesses gave conflicting statements in the case of the police statement alone. Interesting though they seemed to exhonorate Kosassus of all evil in the end. Peculiar...

What the real story is may never be known. Yet, and this is where analysis kicks in, we start asking questions based on all the accounts presented. Even when conflicting we try to find at least the most probable explanation. For example, how could they describe the military speedboats in such detail. And why then Is it possible that suddenly they claimed NOT to be at the locus delictum. Why was this not verified by the prosecutors and so on....that is research and analysis that can be carried out and the use of statistics in this example is simply not applicable.
Again I refer to http://www.malra.org/posko/ just follow the link Geng Coker on the left hand side.

Everyone can make assumption - even we can doubt the Newspapers, but at least I will know that I dont spend my time listening to your ASSUMPTIONS.

I am afraid you are, like many other posted messages in this and any other forum. But nobody is forcing you. I just wonder what you are so agited about ?


And I will respect if you dont write all in BIG LETTERS. BIG LETTERS are only used to emphasize.

i apologize for the Caps. I was not intending to shout, I am just inexperienced in how to use all these buttons in this forum.





Jeroen
Administrator
User icon of Jeroen
spacer line
 


I am just inexperienced in how to use all these buttons in this forum.


Using caps is on your keyboard, not on this forum Emoticon: Clown But I will forgive you Emoticon: Yes!



sidia
User
User icon of sidia
spacer line
 


On 02-11-2005 15:02 searching wrote:

...

And SIDIA, once again (and only for ONCE) I will tell you TWO WRONGS DONT MAKE ONE RIGHT.

I will give you an analogy so your noodle can accept that!


Once again ?? , only one ?

Your Noodle ? What kind of noodle ?
Supermie , Mie Telor or Mie Kocok. ?




Bisa dicek mas . http://omsid.multiply.com/

searching
User
spacer line
 

Okay, I might be a bit carried over because of the CAPS, so I do apologize. Let us analize your comments:


You are wrong, researchers analyse. Depending on the subject statistics can be of use. But how do you convert a police account or interview in statistics ? Maybe you mix science with research and analysis. Assumptions are very often used in analysis. In fact any form of deduction is based on assumptions. Facts often form the basis of the sample of deduction. There are many ways of analysing reports. And I am indeed very much trying to be subjective. in fact, I am giving my personal opinion. You can not ask for more subjectivity.


As long as I know:
(1) A Researcher makes an assumption/hypothesis about something
(2) He then collects the data, as much as can be, to test whether the assumption/hypothesis is right or not.
(3) He then concludes if the assumption/hypothesis is right or not, BASED ON THE FINDING.
A researcher does this in order to be able to be as OBJECTIVE as can be. Even if social science are much more complex than physics or else, but still, COLLECTION RELIABLE DATA is a must.
That's my undestand. IF you base yourself on assumptions, well, we can speak until eternity and we still have our OWN assumption that we hold so dearly.


No I do not, in fact I do not understand your emotional replies. Please enlighten me.


What I mean is that based on your own experiene, A CONFLICTING GROUP harms the other group which they perceives as ENEMY. So it doesn't make sense that COKER (which is a Christian Group) harms CHRISTIANS. Of course, that's my logic only, which may be different than other people, especially moslems.


According to reports the coker gang first told they were carrying out many dirty attacks for Kopassus. This is the initial police statement. Later they retracted the statement stating they were coerced and forced to sign on blank papers after being tortured. Different witnesses gave conflicting statements in the case of the police statement alone. Interesting though they seemed to exhonorate Kosassus of all evil in the end. Peculiar...

What the real story is may never be known. Yet, and this is where analysis kicks in, we start asking questions based on all the accounts presented. Even when conflicting we try to find at least the most probable explanation. For example, how could they describe the military speedboats in such detail. And why then Is it possible that suddenly they claimed NOT to be at the locus delictum. Why was this not verified by the prosecutors and so on....that is research and analysis that can be carried out and the use of statistics in this example is simply not applicable.
Again I refer to http://www.malra.org/posko/ just follow the link Geng Coker on the left hand side.


What reports? Is it trustable or not?
From the link you gave me, I look for the SOYA NEWS and this is the latest:

http://www.malra.org/posko/malra.php4?nr=19834

In it, the SOYA attracker is still unknown. So I ask you what reports that you mentioned? So you based your accusation about COKER based on your assumption?

And SIDIA


Once again ?? , only one ?

Your Noodle ? What kind of noodle ?
Supermie , Mie Telor or Mie Kocok. ?


Please use Complete American English Dictionary. If after using it you think I mean about Supermie or else, then it's up to you.













Find out the real face of Islam, read www. faithfreedom.org

Yogya-Bali
User
User icon of Yogya-Bali
spacer line
 

Beste Principe, er zit een hoop waarheid in wat je hier naar voren brengt. Lees de verslagen van George Aditjondro er maar eens op na die niet ver naast de waarheid zit aangaande de Molukse rellen. De oorsprong hiervan ligt in Jakarta in de Molukse gangsterwereld met z'n islamitische en z'n christelijke gangs en hun leiders (mij bekend).
De zgn. chauffeur van het busje en de ander inwoner van Batu Merah (christelijke deel naast Mardika) zijn mij persoonlijk heel goed bekend (familie, allebei oorspronkelijk afkomstig uit Aboru, eiland Haruku), en ook Soya Atas zijn een groot deel van de bewoners mij bekend (familie van mijn beste vriend). De kwestie Coker ken ik, maar niet van Soya Atas als zijnde de perpetrators.

Verder kan ik niet aan de gedachte ontkomen dat u gehuwd bent met een Indonesische moslima; dit soort gekleurde verdedigingen kom je vooral tegen bij Nederlanders die - vreemd genoeg - altijd de neiging hebben de moslims te verdedigen (ook al worden ze niet eens aangevallen). Am I wrong?

(Overigens prettige inbreng op dit forum.)



Yogya-Bali
User
User icon of Yogya-Bali
spacer line
 

By the way, ik neem het hier niet op voor de christenen maar zie het liever neutraal. Ik kan op dit forum niet ontkomen aan de drang van sommige forumleden om almaar de islam te moeten verdedigen. Ook van christenen, maar daar zitten een hoop niet onderbouwde, nietszeggende schreeuwen tussen die ik niet serieus neem.



Yogya-Bali
User
User icon of Yogya-Bali
spacer line
 

Dear Yerun, excuse me that I was using the wrong language. Just whipe it out. Here is the one in English:

Dear Principe, there's a lot of thruth in what you put on this forum. Read the reports of George Aditjondro who is with his knowledge of the Maluku-case not far between the truth. The origine of the problems came from Jakarta from the Moluccan maffia (preman) with its moslim and christian gangs and their respective leaders (I know them personally).
The so-called busdriver and his friend from Batu Merah (the small christian part of Batu Merah near Mardika, across the road) are wellknown by me (famliy, both originally from Aboru, Haruku-island), and also a lot of inhabitants of Soya Atas are wllknown for me (relatives of my best friend). I know of the existence of the Coker problem and gang, but not that they were involved in the Soya Atas raid as perpetrators.

Apart from this I cannot wipe away the idea that your wife is probably moslim cause this kind of coloured defences you meet quite often with foreigners who married an Indonesian moslima, and - strangely - often do have the urge to defend the moslims (even if they are not offended or attacked). An I wrong?

(apart from this, I am happy with your share on this forum.)




Yogya-Bali
User
User icon of Yogya-Bali
spacer line
 

By the way, I am not defending the Christians but like tob e neutral. I cannot escape on this forum from the idea that some members have the urge always to defend islam. Also from Christians, but between them are lot of non-saying, not well-founded, screaming reactions between which I don't take serious.



sidia
User
User icon of sidia
spacer line
 


On 03-11-2005 08:04 Yogya-Bali wrote:

Dear Principe, theres a lot of thruth in what you put on this forum.
Read the reports of George Aditjondro who is with his knowledge of the Maluku-case not far between the truth. The origine of the problems came from Jakarta from the Moluccan maffia (preman) with its moslim and christian gangs and their respective leaders (I know them personally).

Apart from this I cannot wipe away the idea that your wife is probably moslim cause this kind of coloured defences you meet quite often with foreigners who married an Indonesian moslima, and - strangely - often do have the urge to defend the moslims (even if they are not offended or attacked). An I wrong?

(apart from this, I am happy with your share on this forum.)


Y-B.
I am agree .
For you, people in ambon , outside ambon even in people in holland from indonesian origine can "understand" about "premanism", the conflict of interest , the so called "tawuran"between groups/gangs even villages.
But it is not easy for a tourist /foreigners with a several travelexperiences to understand it like the people from indonesia.

I am neutral in my opinion in this fora , and I am sure that the people in indonesia can solve their own problems.
I only try to give some information ,the other side of the medal , because as you can read , there are some people in this site who are judging , shouting , even insulting the indonesian in general .
I dont agree if some one think that a fora is a place to insulting people , because every fora have standard rules.( see FAQ).


Bisa dicek mas . http://omsid.multiply.com/

sidia
User
User icon of sidia
spacer line
 

Searcher for truth ,

I am asking you for a honest opinion about a text.( 01-11-2005 09.49)
You give no answer and but have a comment abt. Noodle (02-11-2005 15.02)
My mssg : What kind of Noodle (supermie , kocok ?? etc)
Yr mssg: Sidia Must use the Complete American English Dictionary .

Now : My answer :
I have no enough money to buy the complete Am/Engl. Dict.
Have only the Kamus Lengkap Inggris - Indonesia / Indonesia - Inggris .

According my kamus (not lengkap as Compl Am/Engl ) is Noodle a sort of Mie .
That is why I am asking what kind of Noodle .

I dont realise that you are pointing to me , as person.Not nice , but it is yr choise or yr style .
If I am a Orang Bodoh , so be it . (Or a dhimmi ?? , cant find it in my kamus)
Then you are the Orang Pinter ? . O.K. Glad to meet you .

I think you have found the Truth , you dont have searching anymore.




Bisa dicek mas . http://omsid.multiply.com/

sascha
User
User icon of sascha
spacer line
 


On 03-11-2005 08:34 sidia wrote:

...


I am neutral in my opinion in this fora , and I am sure that the people in indonesia can solve their own problems.


What makes u think they can??
True i was shouting a bit, but i simply dont share ur opinion. I dont see enough improvements over there.

Over topic ur comparision with lines out of the bible. As u liked to say its comparing apples with pears. Besides some sects nobody takes literally all whats written in the holy book nowadays. In the muslim world there are also tendencies, but far more preach word for word as its written.

all of the above I.M.H.O




sidia
User
User icon of sidia
spacer line
 


On 03-11-2005 12:11 sascha wrote:

...


What makes u think they can??
True i was shouting a bit, but i simply dont share ur opinion.
all of the above I.M.H.O


also I.M.H.O.


Bisa dicek mas . http://omsid.multiply.com/

sascha
User
User icon of sascha
spacer line
 

It was a serious question sidia.
" ..the conflict of interest , the so called "tawuran"between groups/gangs even villages"
do u see any improvements or actions by the goverment over that topic??
or do u think its inevitable that people kill themselfs there??
if u see improvemens please give me an exact example.
thx



principe
User
spacer line
 

Okay, I might be a bit carried over because of the CAPS, so I do apologize. Let us analize your comments:

As long as I know:
(1) A Researcher makes an assumption/hypothesis about something

(2) He then collects the data, as much as can be, to test whether the assumption/hypothesis is right or not.
(3) He then concludes if the assumption/hypothesis is right or not, BASED ON THE FINDING.

A scientific research may follow your path. Your above methodology is called the deductive approach, yes. There is also an inductive approach, which is exactly the other way around. In fact I was using that one.

A researcher does this in order to be able to be as OBJECTIVE as can be.

I was giving a personal analysis based on reports and other input sofar. I did not say that I had analysed the Coker case in my profession as a researcher. Had I been commissioned to do so I would have given a full report attaching a list of references and methodolgy used including my findings and my hourly fee.

Even if social science are much more complex than physics or else, but still, COLLECTION RELIABLE DATA is a must.

i agree about reliable data. But your debate is centered on research methodology I understand.If so, you could find many theories, conceptual frameworks and models in the internet without going through a time consuming academic study, like I did, to understand some of the basics.

Thats my undestand. IF you base yourself on assumptions, well, we can speak until eternity and we still have our OWN assumption that we hold so dearly.

Indeed that is exactly what I was saying from the start. I never said my story was the trueful one. To me it was more than likely the case because of similarities in covert tactics used. the masks, black ninja style dresses, the possible silence. the machetes slicing throats first. They occured before and not only with Soya atas.

I had the pleasure to talk occasionally with army officials including intel officers. I remember regarding Theyss' murder that the general in Biak exactly explained to me how the road was ceiled off by the accompanying military vehicles which he expained as a military manouver in ambushing vehicles while blocking passage to other cars form the front and rear. He said they learned that at the military accademy of all and that it was common knowledge among them!

The discipline, the coldbloodedness and most of all (if so) the silence smacks of military combat training (mano e mano) and not some muslim fundamentalist having a quiet moment.

Still It would be highly pretentious to suggest that we know for certain unless every single source or the most significant part of sources scrutinized point that way.

What I mean is that based on your own experiene, A CONFLICTING GROUP harms the other group which they perceives as ENEMY. So it doesnt make sense that COKER (which is a Christian Group) harms CHRISTIANS. Of course, thats my logic only, which may be different than other people, especially moslems.

I do not share your view. Yesterday I was watching Metro TV and the head of the anti terror desk cited an example of one muslim extremist caught in Poso and surroundings who turned out to be the bomber of a Mosque in Yogya some time ago. I doubt whether you can just take loyalty to one religion for granted when it comes to earning money or acting for the sake of a big more important scenario. Bali bombers took casualties among their religious fellow man for granted.


...




What reports? Is it trustable or not?

From the link you gave me, I look for the SOYA NEWS and this is the latest:



http://www.malra.org/posko/malra.php4?nr=19834



In it, the SOYA attracker is still unknown. So I ask you what reports that you mentioned? So you based your accusation about COKER based on your assumption?



you should read them all. Not the last one only. And possibly also go researching yourself on the spot with the people involved. If one says A in report A and B in report B, it is not the last that counts. I repeat myself but that is where all research data should be scrutinized to come to such a likelyhood conclusion.

I my view, after following that case extensively I stick to my belief that they were directly involved. I base this on the fact that they wanted to explicitely avoid coinvolving Kopassus as mentioned in their first account to the police. Kopassus in my view has a price on their head. As long as they deny involvement Kopassus may be shielded in their wake. If their first police report however is true than the police gets credit and Kopassus has a hard time playing dumb. Coker are dead men either way but more so in the latter scenario.

yes form the start this is my personal opinion regardless of being a researcher by profession.




principe
User
spacer line
 


On 03-11-2005 07:18 Yogya-Bali wrote:
Beste Principe, er zit een hoop waarheid in wat je hier naar voren brengt. Lees de verslagen van George Aditjondro er maar eens op na die niet ver naast de waarheid zit aangaande de Molukse rellen. De oorsprong hiervan ligt in Jakarta in de Molukse gangsterwereld met zn islamitische en zn christelijke gangs en hun leiders (mij bekend).
De zgn. chauffeur van het busje en de ander inwoner van Batu Merah (christelijke deel naast Mardika) zijn mij persoonlijk heel goed bekend (familie, allebei oorspronkelijk afkomstig uit Aboru, eiland Haruku), en ook Soya Atas zijn een groot deel van de bewoners mij bekend (familie van mijn beste vriend). De kwestie Coker ken ik, maar niet van Soya Atas als zijnde de perpetrators.

Verder kan ik niet aan de gedachte ontkomen dat u gehuwd bent met een Indonesische moslima; dit soort gekleurde verdedigingen kom je vooral tegen bij Nederlanders die - vreemd genoeg - altijd de neiging hebben de moslims te verdedigen (ook al worden ze niet eens aangevallen). Am I wrong?

(Overigens prettige inbreng op dit forum.)


Dear Sir, MAdam
My posting was not intended to attack nor defend muslims or christians . I do admit that I pointed my finger to the possible involvement of military elements in the slayings of the three Poso girls and in later postings the Soya incident. Who knows I might be totally wrong when the truth is revealed. I am certainly not thinking in terms of two wrongs make it right. In fact my approach is rather to identify two wrongs. As such I tried to explain the views of the muslim and christian communities in general (in Indonesia today) regarding the Holy Triinity for instance. To observe and reproduce is most rewarding to me as this expands understandings in my view. However when prejudice rules debates it is wise not to become labelled. As such I hope you understand the reluctance of me answering your question. It will blur the message how reasonable it maybe. As if wearing an AC milan shirt will never give credence to Inter extended compliments. Thank you for appreciating my contribution





searching
User
spacer line
 

To Sidia:




I am asking you for a honest opinion about a text.( 01-11-2005 09.49)

You give no answer and but have a comment abt. Noodle (02-11-2005 15.02)

My mssg : What kind of Noodle (supermie , kocok ?? etc)

Yr mssg: Sidia Must use the Complete American English Dictionary .



Now : My answer :

I have no enough money to buy the complete Am/Engl. Dict.

Have only the Kamus Lengkap Inggris - Indonesia / Indonesia - Inggris .



According my kamus (not lengkap as Compl Am/Engl ) is Noodle a sort of Mie .

That is why I am asking what kind of Noodle .



I dont realise that you are pointing to me , as person.Not nice , but it is yr choise or yr style .

If I am a Orang Bodoh , so be it . (Or a dhimmi ?? , cant find it in my kamus)

Then you are the Orang Pinter ? . O.K. Glad to meet you .



I think you have found the Truth , you dont have searching anymore.



dhimmi: The people subjugated by Islam and have to pay Jiyzah. It's according to the quran that moslem must strive to dominate and other people of the book should become dhimmies (subjugated), while pagans should be slayed.

That's my understanding.



noodle: is a slang for brain/mind.



To Principe:


A scientific research may follow your path. Your above methodology is called the deductive approach, yes. There is also an inductive approach, which is exactly the other way around. In fact I was using that one.





Ok, so you use inductive approach. Please explain about it, to enhance my understanding. Because I always believe that whatever method use, we need RELIABLE DATA to be collected.




I was giving a personal analysis based on reports and other input sofar. I did not say that I had analysed the Coker case in my profession as a researcher. Had I been commissioned to do so I would have given a full report attaching a list of references and methodolgy used including my findings and my hourly fee.





You still haven't told me what reports are they.




i agree about reliable data. But your debate is centered on research methodology I understand.If so, you could find many theories, conceptual frameworks and models in the internet without going through a time consuming academic study, like I did, to understand some of the basics.





Actually my question lies on how you conclude that COKER was the one behind the terror in Soya.




Indeed that is exactly what I was saying from the start. I never said my story was the trueful one. To me it was more than likely the case because of similarities in covert tactics used. the masks, black ninja style dresses, the possible silence. the machetes slicing throats first. They occured before and not only with Soya atas.



I had the pleasure to talk occasionally with army officials including intel officers. I remember regarding Theyss' murder that the general in Biak exactly explained to me how the road was ceiled off by the accompanying military vehicles which he expained as a military manouver in ambushing vehicles while blocking passage to other cars form the front and rear. He said they learned that at the military accademy of all and that it was common knowledge among them!



The discipline, the coldbloodedness and most of all (if so) the silence smacks of military combat training (mano e mano) and not some muslim fundamentalist having a quiet moment.



Still It would be highly pretentious to suggest that we know for certain unless every single source or the most significant part of sources scrutinized point that way.





You forget one thing, that Moslems here like LASKAR JIHAD, have their own military trainings. Not that I say your story is completely impossible. That's why we need to see the motives and careful in concluding anything.




I do not share your view. Yesterday I was watching Metro TV and the head of the anti terror desk cited an example of one muslim extremist caught in Poso and surroundings who turned out to be the bomber of a Mosque in Yogya some time ago. I doubt whether you can just take loyalty to one religion for granted when it comes to earning money or acting for the sake of a big more important scenario. Bali bombers took casualties among their religious fellow man for granted.




In Islam, it's called Taqiyya. Moslems are permitted to lie, when they perceive the situation as war. Please read Quran and Hadits to countercheck what I said here.




you should read them all. Not the last one only. And possibly also go researching yourself on the spot with the people involved. If one says A in report A and B in report B, it is not the last that counts. I repeat myself but that is where all research data should be scrutinized to come to such a likelyhood conclusion.



I my view, after following that case extensively I stick to my belief that they were directly involved. I base this on the fact that they wanted to explicitely avoid coinvolving Kopassus as mentioned in their first account to the police. Kopassus in my view has a price on their head. As long as they deny involvement Kopassus may be shielded in their wake. If their first police report however is true than the police gets credit and Kopassus has a hard time playing dumb. Coker are dead men either way but more so in the latter scenario.



yes form the start this is my personal opinion regardless of being a researcher by profession.




It's nice to know that after so many times exchanging words in discussion, we conclude that all we have only pieces of information and our assumptions and personal opinions.



My other assumption is based on what is stated in quran: Invoke terror in the heart of the disbeliever. You can check that there are verses like this in quran, and you can check hadits too, to see if I am not bullshitting. So I conclude that there must be an islamic militant group here, which is strong enough to evoke terror. And since the fall of Soeharto, the TNI and such have no power to overcome it. In the past, they can use "Penembak Misterius" (an evil method to kill people without being known, usually to kill preman). But now, after the press becomes so free, then it's almost impossible to do anything without people screaming.

If I meet my Ambonese friends, I will ask them and let you know the result, but cannot promise, because I lost contact with them for so many years.



To Yogya Bali:

Not necessarily that westerners defend Islam because of marriage, but because it's politically correct. They will say that Islam is the religion of peace. That's why I urge you to read www.faithfreedom.org (a site of an ex-moslem's). After that, you can read www.faithfreedom.com (a site to answer the first site) , so you will understand which one is right and which one is not. And you can be more objective.



To Sascha:

Sometimes, it's important to scream if you meet a certain type of personality. So I will not blame you for that.



To Jeroen:

Have a nice day. I know I bring a lot of headache to your young mind. So I do apologize. And if you don't mind, you may tell Principe how to use quotation, so his answers will not mix with mine.


Find out the real face of Islam, read www. faithfreedom.org

Jeroen
Administrator
User icon of Jeroen
spacer line
 

Removed to prevent your adress from being spammed. Click this to go to the user profile.searching:

You can use quotes by using :


You can then simply put the text from others you want to quote between the tags. You can plat a little with it by hitting the preview button first to see if you have what you wanted to have.

Don't worry to much about the rest Emoticon: Wink



sidia
User
User icon of sidia
spacer line
 


On 03-11-2005 13:45 sascha wrote:
It was a serious question sidia.
" ..the conflict of interest , the so called "tawuran"between groups/gangs even villages"
do u see any improvements or actions by the goverment over that topic??
or do u think its inevitable that people kill themselfs there??
if u see improvemens please give me an exact example.
thx


At least 3 reason.
1.the numbers of ambonese people
2 .the socialstructure of their community.
3. their geographic spreading


As you see Almost Everybody know everybody , friends , family and don't forget their Adat , Pela.
The beginning of the problems : You can read in several sites about it , i.m.o it is only a Conflict of Interest , later escalated to the so called SARA .

I am sure they can solve the problem , because they Must solve it.
To live peacefully with their neighbours and friends.
See Balkan.
It easy to fight against strangers , but not easy if you must fight against friends , families.




Bisa dicek mas . http://omsid.multiply.com/

principe
User
spacer line
 


Ok, so you use inductive approach. Please explain about it, to enhance my understanding. Because I always believe that whatever method use, we need RELIABLE DATA to be collected<


Searching I do not want to be rude. Nor do I want to lecture you in a blitz on subjects that took me some 6 years to grasp and many more years of experience to perfect.


And I do not want to sound vain either. And I do not want to give you the impression that I try to avoid answering, but I wonder if this reaches an acceptable point

OK, here you go and I quote

In traditional Aristotelian logic, deductive reasoning is inference in which the conclusion is of lesser or equal generality than the premises, as opposed to inductive reasoning, where the conclusion is of greater generality than the premises. Other theories of logic define deductive reasoning as inference in which the conclusion is just as certain as the premises, as opposed to inductive reasoning, where the conclusion can have less certainty than the premises. In both approaches, the conclusion of a deductive inference is necessitated by the premises: the premises can't be true while the conclusion is false. (In Aristotelian logic, the premises in inductive reasoning can also be related in this way to the conclusion

example Valid:

All men are mortal.
Socrates is a man.
Therefore Socrates is mortal.
The picture is above the desk.
The desk is above the floor.
Therefore the picture is above the floor.

Invalid:


Every criminal opposes the government.
Everyone in the opposition party opposes the government.
Therefore everyone in the opposition party is a criminal.

This is invalid because the premises fail to establish commonality between membership in the opposition party and being a criminal. This is the famous fallacy of undistributed middle

Induction or inductive reasoning, sometimes called inductive logic, is the process of reasoning in which the premises of an argument support the conclusion, but do not ensure it. It is to ascribe properties or relations to types based on limited observations of particular tokens; or to formulate laws based on limited observations of recurring phenomenal patterns. Induction is used, for example, in using specific propositions such as

The ice is cold.
A billiard ball moves when struck with a cue.
to infer general propositions such as

All ice is cold. or: There is no ice in the Sun.
For every action, there is an equal and opposite re-action.

I sense though that you are also making attempts to clearify the definition of science

I quote again

Science is defined as "The observation, identification, description, experimental investigation [scientific method], and theoretical explanation of phenomena. Such activities restricted to a class of natural phenomena. Such activities applied to an object of inquiry or study.

unquote



Actually my question lies on how you conclude that COKER was the one behind the terror in Soya


I really thought that I answered that question more than once. Are you actually reading what I wrote ? Please make an attempt in finding it in all my earlier postings. All possible links in http://www.malra.org/posko/, All newspapers and TV programs I already mentioned daily life experience, talks with several concerned people and others and a lot more.

Are you asking me a specific quote of some articles where it is stated that Coker was behind the Soya massacre for a fact? the answer is "in several articles". And NO, you can never know for sure whether it is true espescially when they retracted their first police statement. And yes it is my assumption based on several accounts which I conclude are facts. And no you do not have to agree.

Would it have made any difference to you if all coker members had confessed and nobody would have doubted these confessions. What is your criteria of "truth" ?


nice to know that after so many times exchanging words in discussion, we conclude


We ? I am sure I concluded that starting from my first posting.
But Boom, I am glad that you auto answered all your questions to me


that all we have only pieces of information and our assumptions and personal opinions


And our capacity to analyse




So I conclude that there must be an islamic militant group here, which is strong enough to evoke terror.


Indeed they were there for a fact. Many analysts agree that Laskar Jihad was a military creation. A militia if you will. Other groups like Laskar Mujahiddin and Jundullah seemed to be in lesser connection with the military but far closer with political influential parties and persons. This however does not lesson the Coker involvement in Soya IN MY OPINION



After the press becomes so free, then it\s almost impossible to do anything without people screaming


Mainstream press are overall seen in Indonesia to be reporting according to the journalistic ethics and standard. Some however still have no grasp of ethics and remain writing in any kind of flavor for money.



sascha
User
User icon of sascha
spacer line
 

Sidia
Balkan is a bad example.
Without international interference they would still kill each other there.
Muslims, catholics or orthodox they all tried genocide on one another there.
So then i must assume some peace keeping force would be the only thing that helps in indonesia. Because they would have no interest for one or the other side. You can only trust the Indonesian forces to a certain extend as reports from aceh, timur and what principe says are true. So foreigners should be involved.



sidia
User
User icon of sidia
spacer line
 


On 03-11-2005 04:55 searching wrote:


. IF you base yourself on assumptions, well, we can speak until eternity and we still have our OWN assumption that we hold so dearly.


...


. So it doesnt make sense that COKER (which is a Christian Group) harms CHRISTIANS.

Of course, thats my logic only, which may be different than other people, especially moslems.


...


a. No doubt . Sure if you only repeating the same arguments.
And other people with diff. opinion is according you a apologist , detective etc .etc
Debat kusir.

b. Never heard of conspiracy ?.
F.E the Tonkin Incident , the reason to begin the Vietnam War.
To me they (the Coker) are premans with certain interest.
They are NOT christian .
And I am NOT Blaming other christian.

c.Yes , it is only yours.Yr Truth.
I cant follow it.
But I still read yr mssg with pleasure.













Bisa dicek mas . http://omsid.multiply.com/


You have to be logged in to post a message. You can login by clicking here.
If you do not have an account yet, you can register yourself here.



77,066,962 topic views - 235,022 posts - 13,697 topics - 25,776 members - last post @ 19-11-2019 15:47 CET

Created by indahnesia.com · feedback & contact · © 2000-2019
Other websites by indahnesia.com: ticketindonesia.info · kamus-online.com · indonesiepagina.nl · suvono.nl

125,882,232 pageviews Discover Indonesia Online at indahnesia.com