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AnisJ
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According the index of Tranparency International INDOnesia is 137 on their index list, with countries like: Azarbijan, Cameroon, Ethiopia, Iraq, Liberia, Uzbekistan.
Iceland is ahead on the first place; the Netherlands on 11 with the United Kingdom.

You can read more about this organisation on:

www.transparency.org/cpi/2005/cpi2005_infocus.html

and:

id.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transparency-International


'Ahu kura ahia, mansia nia'

Jeroen
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Anis, you last link doesn't bring me to a correct page. The image doesn't exist either.. as it seems.



sidia
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CPI : score relates to perceptions of the degree of corruption as seen by bussiness people and country analist.

A strange index , because they compare apple with pear.
Different countries , population , problems .
Even the number of surveys is also different.
For example comparing Indonesia with Ethopia and Liberia., cameroon , irak.




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kiwimave
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Sometimes it's hard to see the truth..

BEFORE you can do anything about a problem it's most important to ACCEPT the problem, then only you can do something about it.

I hope the Indon government accepts this report and will do much much more to move Indonesia up in the list. It's such a shame that Indonesia has to be called in one name with those "Banana Republic" countries.. Emoticon: Cry


Gracias. Sama sama

sidia
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What is the truth ?
This index is a better ranking in compare with people who shouting Indonesia is the most corrupt country in the world.

I am not arguing the index , but I have some commemt about the methods.
Everyone can see that the number of surveys held in Indonesia is 13.
And some of countries have less survey.
If you named a country like Liberia where is it ? , a island somewhere ? *
Abt Somalia , a small country somewhere in africa (I knew it because a Dutch M.P miss Ayaan Hirschi Ali is from Somalia).
But it is ridicoulus to compare Somalia with Indonesia.
Etc Etc .They named countries which I never "heard" .
Still Apple and pear.


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sascha
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Sidia, if u dont understand it dont critisize it!!!!! or read the METHOLODGY
If u never heard of this countries its ur bad. But u should have heard of the country on rank 5 - singapure. And rank 39 - malaysia.




sidia
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Sascha ,
methol something ? , you mean something with alcohol ? (schnaps ? )

pse see my remark : a island somewhere *


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sascha
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hey got me on that one.
change 2 letters and add an o and u will be fine.
sorry i simply dont understand ur comment, where the country is is not relevant. how big it is is not relevant. its about how corrupt it is and if u read the methoDoLOgy u will recognize that it is averaged per country.
if u dont want to be compared to some poor n not sooo small african country just take southeastasian countries for comparision, as the examples i gave.

its still a pain to have a discussion with u.



sidia
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On 23-10-2005 21:26 sascha wrote:

sorry i simply dont understand ur comment, where the country is is not relevant. how big it is is not relevant. its about how corrupt it is .


Defenition Of CPI :
as seen by bussiness people -----etc etc..
A small stateisland Rumbadumba somewhere in the pacific.
Rumbadumba have only 88.000 inhab. , they have no industry , but selfsupporting , they live from fishing and sometimes ecoturism.They have no trade with other islands or countries
According CPI criteria they must be the nr 1 in the list because they havo no corruption.
(No trade , no bussinessman resulting in almost no corruption.)
Still apple and pear.





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sascha
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first none of the countries on that list fits ur description.
second in my opinion you still DON'T understand it. So stop discussing and giving factless comments. u really must think all those people are stupid, maybe they should turn to master sidia to study the true economics. Emoticon: Worship Emoticon: Stupid



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Dear Sascha,

To be honest, I don't understand either, but I think we have a problem in corruption that need to be taken care of. Emoticon: Yes!
Good day to you.

WJ



sidia
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On 24-10-2005 05:15 sascha wrote:
first none of the countries on that list fits ur description.
second in my opinion you still DONT understand it. So stop discussing and giving factless comments. u really must think all those people are stupid, maybe they should turn to master sidia to study the true economics. Emoticon: Worship Emoticon: Stupid

--------------------------------------------------------------------------
1.Of course , it is only in imagenation of sidia
2.you can try to explain it to me .
3. I am not educated enough but you cannot compare country X with 12 surveys and country Y with 3 survey.(less accurate)
4.Sidia is only master in omong kosong .


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Agung
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I agree that it's comparing "apples with pears". I also doubt if there's any significance between a score of 137 and 120 or 160. Also corruption comes in many ways. In Holland builders of public infrastructure steal here and there a couple of billion Euro, in Indonesia officials steal lots of money from people who need some kind of document from them. Dutch corruption is not very visible, but I'm sure the ordinary people pay for it in the end. In Indonesia itís very visible. How do you compare these?

On the other hand, for most of us, there's an obvious difference between the top 10 countries and the countries with a score less than 100. There's still work to be done. (Both Indonesia & Belanda)




sascha
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even in the short methodology description they write how accurate these rankings are. The 3 survey may only be 60-70% accurate. Ok so leave out al those, indonesia still has bad a bad ranking. The ranking itself is just a form of presentation in the end its just about numbers itself. And those are not good.
Agung what u call invisible corruption must be public somehow(else u wouldnt know) and as soon as it gets investigated it shows up in the survey. As for the payment of documents, may i ask how else are u going to pay the public servants?? maybe u want to pay more taxes??



sidia
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Sascha :
You say : Indonesia still has a bad ranking.

So be it , very nice to know it , and I also agree with it .
But stil apple and pear.

Indonesia have the same Ranking as Liberia.
Very interesting. But you cannot compare Indonesia with Liberia.

May I give you another example.(not personal , only an example)
About The Germans , Now (after die wende ) they call themself Ein Volk .
Yes they are Germans .But everyone know the differences between the westies and oosties.They are not the "same".




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sascha
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Emoticon: Laugh out loud Thanks, u gave me a good smile today. Westies and Osties that sounds so funny (to my ears at least) Emoticon: Puh! Is that the way u say it in belanda??
Here its Wessi and Ossi.
Maybe u see indonesian coruptian as part of ur culture. However for a western(especially business men) its as much corruption as the corruption in liberia. He will think twice to make an investment either in indonesia or liberia.
Thats what this Survey is made for business people and politicians. We shouldn't really bother with it as we lack understanding and even we know, we can hardly change a thing.



AnisJ
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Aduh Sidia dia panas sekali Emoticon: Blush ,

Still 'Sid', Germany is 16th on the list and the Netherlands is 11, with U.K.; Sacha thanks for contibuting the 'methology' of 'Transperancy'.
'Sid' after reading their methology ........ what about it ???

Anis.




'Ahu kura ahia, mansia nia'

sidia
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On 24-10-2005 14:49 sascha wrote:
Emoticon: Laugh out loud Thanks, u gave me a good smile today.

Maybe u see indonesian coruptian as part of ur culture.

Thats what this Survey is made for business people and politicians

-------------------------------------------------------
1. you are welcome

2. my culture ??

3. Only for businesspeople and ploiticians ??

Anis :
Sidia is from golongan pengecap.


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hobo1
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I agree that comparing different counties and call the difference corruption or transparency is unfair. I do not know a precise word, but graft or bribery is getting more accurate. No matter what word you use, it can never tell the whole story.

On the other hand, being forwarned by such an index at least raises a flag to anyone planning on living or doing business here. I think anyone who has stayed here for longer than 6 months can see the process and method of obtaining permission from the government requires a little "slippery money". I am sure it is handled differenly in every country, so you can only understand Indonesia by experiencing it. If I were a foriegn businessman were planning to start a company in any other country he would have to do a lot of homework first.

In reality, this survey in of itself does not have much practical purpose - other than gossip.


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