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Indonesia to monitor Muslim boarding schools
Indonesia, the world’s most populous Muslim nation, will monitor Islamic boarding schools as part of its effort to fight militant violence and suicide bombings, Vice President Jusuf Kalla said. Indonesia has been racked by a spate of bomb attacks in recent years, including one on the tourist island of Bali this month in which 23 people died, including three suicide bombers.
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Agung
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Better late than never....



sidia
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That is not late , because they havenot done it for a couple years.
Since 1998 , everyone in Indonesia knows about it.
Indonesia have now democracy , almost everyone have rights to do, to speak , to organise etc etc .
Some times changes some people the democracy to DemosCrazy .
Now will the govt. introduced a new policy to counter the problems.
(according the nwpapers)
And what happened ?
A certain groups in indonesia are yelling : its again the democracy.


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Yogya-Bali
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And what is the result of the first investigations of 2 pesantren which already have been proven to be a breeding-ground for candidate extremists and terrorists, the Ngukri in Solo and the one in Lamongan? Guess........
As usual........ nothing wrong with these schools, evrything according to the rules. (In Dutch: je kop in het zand steken. Struisvogelpolitiek.)
These worthless investigations with their ridiculous come of, will only damage the good name of normal pesantren.



sidia
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On 23-10-2005 11:21 Yogya-Bali wrote:
And what is the result of the first investigations of 2 pesantren which already have been proven to be a breeding-ground for candidate extremists and terrorists, the Ngukri in Solo and the one in Lamongan? Guess........

As usual........ nothing wrong with these schools, evrything according to the rules. (In Dutch: je kop in het zand steken. Struisvogelpolitiek.)



Already have been proven : By whom ?
Result : nothing wrong , everything accoprding the rules.

Without evidence , you can do nothing.
For the non dutchies :In holland we have also some mosques where according the newspaper the imams are preaching hate against the "unbeliever".
Some people ask the Dutch Govt . TO CLOSE the mosques.
But they cannot do it , because they have not enough evidence.
That is democracy. And according the Dutch Law.

As you know the indonesian govt . will give the army more role to counter the terorist.attack.(see Newsbot ) .
Even Singapura and Malaysia have introduced their own Security Act.
(donot forget our big brother USA = I think the so called Patriot Act )
But a part of the indonesian is against the new role of the army.
It is to the indonesian people to decide how they will choose between personal security , social/political security and democracy.


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kiwimave
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I think democracy in Indonesia unfortunately has to take a step back for a while to allow a forceful political movement (like some form of dictatorship) to smoke out Muslim-Terrorism before it will infestate the whole country.

Indonesia can become an example for the world, where moderate Muslims effectively supress religious fundamentalism.


Gracias. Sama sama

sidia
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On 23-10-2005 21:46 kiwimave wrote:
I think democracy in Indonesia unfortunately has to take a step back for a while to allow a forceful political movement (like some form of dictatorship) to smoke out Muslim-Terrorism before it will infestate the whole country.

Indonesia can become an example for the world, where moderate Muslims effectively supress religious fundamentalism.


Oei , oei , oei .

What about the humanright, the freedom to speak, to organise , the democracy etc etc.
Not more important ?
Carte blanche to put people in jail , torture and even killing them ?
A new Guanta ------ ???
Justified it in the name of war again terorism ???
And then the so called civilized countries blaming the govt. and bring the responsible people to ICC ?
thank you very much.

I am very disappointed .


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Sid,

Without sacrifice, we all will live in terror. The problem is that terrorists keep bombing to places where we, common people, usually go. And it's sad that the moderate Moslems so far (except Gus Dur), never voice enough about the extremists. Some people here even idolize peope like Bin Laden

WJ



sidia
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Johny ,

what kind of sacrifice ??
Less or no freedom, democracy etc etc ?

Is it only a problem (? ? ) because the bad guys are bombing the places where common people like you and me usually go .

IF yes , I am glad that I am living far away from that place.
OR is it a matter of principle ??? (WE have the Same Right)
I think the last one.


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Agung
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Is it only a problem (? ? ) because the bad guys are bombing the places where common people like you and me usually go .
According to me: every bomb is one too many, also a bomb in a place where I never come.


Some people here even idolize peope like Bin Laden
Religious leaders should set an example here and issue a Fatwah against this man. This would help a great deal for all of us to make clear who the bad guy is in this world.



sidia
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Agung :
Yes it is a matter of humanity and because we have the same rights.

As you know the religious leaders have OFFICIALLY condemned it on behalf of their groups or organisation.And ofcourse the other moderate Muslim.
But it seems that some people asking that every individual muslim must officially (by letter or email ?) condemned the terorist attack .

About Fatwa : you have tooooo much expetation .
You must see it like the "fatwa" of the pope regarding sex / birthcontrol .(HIV etc)
Almost everyone dont follow the "fatwa" .No sex before marriage , No pil / condom even to avoid HIV.




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i agree...

most of the terrorist come from muslim boarding school, although not all of them, but several muslim boarding school alias "pesantren gelap dan tidak jelas" brainwashed their students and teach how to create riot everywhere (read:bomb explosion)



Yogya-Bali
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All the old religions are old-fashioned and the world would be much better off if they close all the mosques, churches, temples and that kind of nonsense which are based on some kind of philosophy which founds its origine in the dark ages (especially those who had their origine in the Middle-East), so that all the reli-leaders are disposed of their (abuse of) power.

By the way, there are already ex-pupils from Ngukri who have testified against their school in magazines and the delusions which are preached overthere. But nobody wants to listen to them. And they are also afraid to testify in court because probably the next morning you will have a bomb in your house or a visit of the FPI.



Agung
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the world would be much better off if they close all the mosques, churches, temples and that kind of nonsense which are based on some kind of philosophy which founds its origin in the dark ages (especially those who had their origin in the Middle-East)
In my view most religions do not origin from the dark ages, but from a period before the dark ages. I think Christianity caused the European dark ages. I think Muslim also does not come from a "dark age", but has already caused their first "dark decade" (1995-2005). (E.G. in Afghanistan) I agree that religions coming from the Middle East correlate badly with violence.



Jantje
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These are the fruits of the Bush era. The Bush family sits on Gods throne. Sowing terror in fertile soil like the Balkan, Afghanistan, Iraq and shortly Iran. They harvest terrorists. People who’s families, nearest and dearest have been bombed, raped, humiliated and lost everything. People whose life became worthless and rather be dead. When these people are approached and asked if they want to join a terrorist training camp they have no choice. They believe when leaders promise a reward in heaven awaits them.
Religion is based on fear and exclusivity. Interpretations of ancient stories by sick leaders and clerics who tell people how to live their lives.
The war on terror will never be won. Emoticon: Eerie




Agung
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These are the fruits of the Bush era. The Bush family sits on Gods throne. Sowing terror in fertile soil like the Balkan, Afghanistan, Iraq and shortly Iran.
In the past the USA also fought in Germany, Japan & Vietnam with more mortalities than Irak, but from these countries there came no terrorists. I guess the German, Japanese & Vietnamese soil wasn't "fertile"

Although I'm not exactly a fan of mr. Bush (better gone today) all these countries with "fertile" soil also have something to think about and it would be a little bit too easy to say it's all the fault of mr. Bush.




sascha
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As long as there is mankind there will be cruel and bad things happening.
Its not all up to religion. Just take Hitler and the Nazis as example - no religion but a "follow the leader" thingy. Stalin, Mao, Cambodia and so on. Its not about religion its about people with some serious mental problems and great hunger for power. And then in every war u have atrocities even by so called civilized people, it just takes the right situation and certain triggers.
Germany and Japan, that was another time - after being bombed to pieces and years of war the people were tired. Iraqis and other can feel happy wars are led different nowadays.
The terrorist were there before the war(iraq) anyway. If u want to blame someone, blame coca cola and nike not bush. Its the globalisation they fear and battle.



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They are cults, aren't they? I mean an ideology of hate and promote killings to innocent people (like Nazi etc).



Yogya-Bali
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On 24-10-2005 19:32 sascha wrote:
. Its the globalisation they fear and battle.


Well for me it's no battle. In a battle you know who your enemy is. In this situation they choose easy targets, innocent people. No normal human being can do these things, except for mentally disturbed people who have to be destroyed untill the roots of their sick ideology or interpretation of religion.
But it is strange that certain religions seem to be more open for these sick interpretations then others.



sidia
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On 24-10-2005 12:49 telorpindang wrote:
i agree...

most of the terrorist come from muslim boarding school, although not all of them, but several muslim boarding school alias "pesantren gelap dan tidak jelas" brainwashed their students and teach how to create riot everywhere (read:bomb explosion)


Yes , its true . No one can denied.
IF possible the Ind.Govt. must prosecuted them .

In holland we have almost the same situation.
We havenot PonPes like Indonesia , but there are some disturbing activities in some mosques .(acc. the nwpapers).
People , the neigbourhood , politicians from the rightwings are asking the Dutch Govt. to close the mosque , and prosecuted the people who predicting hate..
And the Govt . did "nothing " (till now) , because some reason ?
And what kind of reason ?????

It is very easy and cheap to judge a situation IF we doesnot know the background.


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Agung
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But it is strange that certain religions seem to be more open for these sick interpretations then others.
I think one of the problems with these religions is that they are convinced that they are best, biggest or the only true faith. Both in middle age christinity and nowadays muslim there's is strong sense of superiority.

Muslims have always felt superior compared to infidels (means: non believers=non Muslims) Due to globalisation they are more and more confronted with the rest of the world. This confronts them with the fact that they are not superior. For some of them this is so frustrating that the only way they can cope with this is by becoming a terrorist.

According to me, terrorists are basically people who are jealous of the superiority of people with other religions and think they should do something about it by using force.




sidia
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On 25-10-2005 10:16 Agung wrote:

...

Due to globalisation they are more and more confronted with the rest of the world. This confronts them with the fact that they are not superior.


No one is superior.We are the childeren of God.We have the same right.
Btw do you have study the Islam , or at least read books , the Qur'an and do you also have an open dialogue with Muslim ??

I am born as Muslim , and of course I am Muslim too.
I have always learn tolerancy for the "childeren of the books "
(Christians / Jewish). And of course the other religion.

I am living for years in holland , I speak , learn and live with christians (and others) . I read the bible , and other christian books (protestant) .
Even I go to the church , to learn the other childrens of god.

And now I am still Muslim , not because I am born as Muslim.
Because I am sure I have choise the good one.It is good for me.



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Yogya-Bali
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Interesting about this subject is the book "What went wrong? Western impact and Middle East response" of Bernard Lewis.
The contents of this book connect with Agung's response. The problem is that the moslim world - after centuries of powerful Islam civilisations - is loosing ground already for a long time against the despised West (and actually against all the other world-religions) on all kinds of subjects. Instead of looking to the question "Where did we go wrong?" the hardliners are only asking "Who did this to us?", looking for scapegoats. The results are very much with us today.
To put an end to terrorism, based on a religion in combination with frustration, this religion has to go through a fundamental change to be able to cope with the global age. It needs an enlightement and a critic look inside to be able to revive as a religion which can give its followers answers on the questions where they are confrontated with nowadays. The Indonesian MUI has definitely not given the right example with its hardline fatwa's and the exclusion of a part of other thinking moslims in the country.



Agung
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Hi Sidia,
You’ve obviously found the right way in religion. Of course, no one is superior; we are all children of one God. We only use different names for God. But, what for you and me is obvious, isn't obvious for the people that cause problems.

I agree, my statement is rather bold, but I really think that that's the source of the problems. Maybe I should refine my statement by saying:

Terrorists are basically people who are jealous of the superiority of other people who are more successful.

Because I don't think it's the superiority of other religions that bothers them, but mostly their economical success. This means "being poor" is a strong parameter in the equation.

In this statement I see only one problem: how can I explain the rich Bin Laden becoming a terrorist? Special case? Emoticon: Confused

Greetings,

A.A.



sidia
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On 25-10-2005 11:29 Agung wrote:

Because I dont think its the superiority of other religions that bothers them, but mostly their economical success. This means "being poor" is a strong parameter in the equation.

In this statement I see only one problem: how can I explain the rich Bin Laden becoming a terrorist? Special case? Emoticon: Confused

Greetings,

A.A.

a. Not the economical success , because you can joint them for your own benefit.Let say joint venture , fifty -fifty. It is better for both side.
They are fighting back because conflict of interest (economical / political).
The late Mr Soekarno have a good defenition : To fight the NEKOLIM.
(Neo Kolonialism/ Imperialism).

b. abt the arab individual , it begin with the comes of american soldiers in saudi arabia.(1st Gulf War).Also with his personal problems with the royalty.
His family are good friends of the american B family.

In fact he is the friends of the americans (CIA) , like the Talibans in Afghanistan.(Sovjet period)
Created by the americans.(foreign policy , not the americans people).
Thank you America . God bless America.




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