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aliakbar
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Freinds who have a Mixed nationality relation ship please do express your views here...................( + 18 ) hahaha sometimes....

Rgds , Ali
www.cometojakarta.com


www Jakarta through the Eyes of an Expat

Jeroen
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Disadvantage: the damn distance
Advantage: the damn distance

Emoticon: Shiny Emoticon: Shiny

But there is much more of course. Don't know much about it yet.



Daphne
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Lots advantages for the culture. But you can have lots of misunderstanding if the couple don't communicate.
BUT MIXED COUPLE LOVE IS WONDERFUL



Cantiara
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I have a 'mixed couple' relationship, since my bf is dutch. However, I can't see the relevancy of having advantages/disadvantages in a love relationship.

But what I can tell you is, of course like any other love relationship it is a hard work, but a mixed couple relationship needs more hard work than having a partner who is from your own culture.

In my case, I can tell you the culture differences that can be an issue in this 'mixed couple' relationship.

1. As an Indonesian, I come from a high context culture, while my dutch bf comes from a low context culture. This could lead to a BIG misunderstanding, since both cultures have different approach of communication. People from high contect culture are more aware with 'signals' language, and people from low context cultures aren't. They are more verbally explicit. And sometimes signals can be intepreted differently.

2. In Indonesia, we have a polychronic time system, while my dutch bf grow in a monochronic time society. For him, time is 'visible'. It can be spent, wasted and consumed. For him there is only a singular timeline, which is the beginning - process - the end. It means, he can only focus on one thing at a time. This collides with polychronic time cultures, like in Indonesia. People from polychronic cultures do not think time is singular. For them, time is circular, and can be affected with many different things. Even though everything is planned, changes can still be made at the last moment. E.g. we agreed to go to a friend's party at 9, and then suddenly my mom calls me at 9. I wouldn't care if we arrive at the party an hour later, coz my mom calls me. But he cares Emoticon: Smile

3. Indonesia is a collectivist culture, while dutch is more individualistic. My bf still has difficulty in understanding the 'sense of belonging to a group' in indonesia. Moreover, what 'losing face' (hilang muka) can affect an individual in Indonesia. While I have that kind of thing, and it's hard for him to understand. Coz for him self actualization is more important than the sense of belonging to a group.

Well, there are still many things, but after all, love might be a natural feeling, but what comes out of it really depends on how hard you work on it. Right?




Jeroen
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Ciantara;

A wonderfull explaination at point 2. I have to admit that it's not always as you describe, but generally that can indeed be said about Dutch and Indonesians.

I myself am 100% Dutch, but it's fairly easy for me to adapt to the "Indonesian time", so to speak. Don't know why that is, it just happened to be that I don't have a problem with it. And if I don't have a problem with it, I don't tend to find out why I'm feeling good with it.. hehe.. Emoticon: Smile



diederick
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I am also 100% Dutch (that means I have German, Swiss, Spanish and God's now what other kind of ancestors in my bloodline). And my wife is not (although European). In this relationship I don't see that much cultural differences. Because she is from the south of Europe she may be a bit more "explosive", while I am a bit more reserved. Before I came to Indonesia I enjoyed a "transcultural" management course, in which I indeed was thaught a number of things that are mentioned (rubber time, the "suku" or extended familiy, shameculture etc.). I found it funny that when I was actually in Indonesia and mentioned some of these things, a lot of people react with " oh, but that is old-fashioned!". I also noticed that there a big differences between the attitudes of Indonesian, be it because they are from different parts (compare f.i. a Batak or a Javanese), or their personal background (studied/worked abroad or stuck in the kampong).



Veer01
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Don't know...I guess I will find out soon...when she is here and we are a couple.Now i can only see advantages. Emoticon: Shiny



Desi Clark
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Sorry I have to swear

S**T..I did make a long list of advantages and disadvantages.. but all is gone........................

I am upset!!!!!!!!!! I want my list backkkkkkkkkkk

Emoticon: Angry


Effort and Courage are not enough without purpose and direction.

Cantiara
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Jeroen, that's interesting. I, personally, would think you come from a family that scores very low for uncertainty avoidance. It means you can tolerate ambiguous situations very well, and therefore your level of adjustment is much higher than other Dutch society.

Anyways, I am glad that Ali started this thread, because I am very interested in intracultural differences and management. Any other mixed couple stories that can be shared? Emoticon: Smile





mashil
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Its unbelievble, just wrothe down a very open story about my experince with mixed love, It just disappeard after a error or something...... Emoticon: Angry It took somemuch time.
I promised to tell again my story after a cool down.
Love and Peace,
Mas Hill


- Let us live simply so that others may simply live -

mashil
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Ok, again, first I would like to say that Ciantara had a very good explanation, especially point 3.
I also had some experience related to this topic, I don’t know of it is interesting for you guys, but I just like to tell.
2 ½ year I met a beautiful nice girl in Indonesia. In the beginning we were both shy to get in contact with each other because from the first moment I saw her my heart beat was changed in a other riddim. Anyway, after 3 weeks we got in closer contact, and we both felt really in love to each other. After 2 months a went back home to Amsterdam, promising her to come back soon as possible. After 8 months working I went back to her, and our meeting was…….amazingly nice….we had a wonderful time together , she asked me to stay with her, but I already decided to start studying in the Netherlands. I also really loved her, it was the first time a felt something like that, but I had to go. With pain in my heart, I left her, Indonesia, and left my heart. After my leaving she didn’t want to stay in contact with me. Her friends told me she would try to forget me. This was one thing I did not understand, the second thing is that I just heard she is married! I really wish she is happy, but also feel some pain in my heart.
To come back to the point from Ciantara, the point of discussion we often had was your point 3. Point number 2 was not really a problem for me, it is more a problem I have in Holland!
Thanx for your attention.
Love and peace,
Mas Hill.
Emoticon: Shiny


- Let us live simply so that others may simply live -

Jeroen
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It's what Mas Hill stated above. The return to Holland is a bigger step to make than the trip to Indonesia again. Back here, everything is so.... static and regulated... don't know. Everytime I get back here I like that less and less, however I have been living here for almost 23 years now (my entire life that is).



Cantiara
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Mas Hill, so sorry for that... I hope you'd feel the same again with someone else soon Emoticon: Smile

Oh yeah, even though my bf is still learning about the Indonesian culture (and yeah, believe me, he is learning Emoticon: Smile ), and finds it difficult to adjust from time to time, but he is in love with the country itself. We went to Indonesia (Jakarta and Manado, that's where my familiy lives) 3 years ago. He loves the beautiful landscape, the tropical weather and the dynamic feeling he got when he was there, and he said that he would like to settle there.

It's nice to hear that from him. Well, probably in 10 more years (less than that if everything's in order). We still need to graduate! and find a working experience.. So hey Jeroen, misschien wil jij daar ook komen wonen? Emoticon: Yes!




Desi Clark
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Jeroen,

I found this article from Radio Nederlands. I thought it's worth to share.. I know you can post this article in appropriate place somewhere in this website...... Emoticon: Very funny

I will share my opinon about mixed couple later...but now enjoy this article....Cheers...Desi Clark.

The Netherlands has a reputation for being a tolerant society. But is this really the case - and what exactly is meant by tolerance anyway? Dutch sociologist Dienke Hondius has written a book called 'Mixed Marriages, Mixed Feelings' for which she interviewed 88 married couples where one of the partners is non-Dutch. Her findings make fascinating, if somewhat disturbing, reading. Miss Hondius told Radio Netherlands that the term 'mixed marriage' has meant different things to different generations.

"In The Netherlands, a mixed marriage used to mean Catholic and Protestant", says Ms Hondius. "Now if you ask people, they will usually say 'between a Muslim and a Dutch national' or 'between black and white'. In my research I've defined it as a marriage between people with ethnic and religious differences".

Guest Workers
After the end of World War II, Holland first started to see a significant number of marriages between the Dutch and people from Indonesia and Surinam, both former colonies, as well as from the Netherlands Antilles. In the 1960's, migrants from southern Europe - the so-called guest workers - settled in The Netherlands, and were later joined by others from Morocco and Turkey. Nowadays, asylum seekers and refugees from all over the world are part of Dutch society, creating even more diversity in the character of mixed marriages. Ms Hondius says that the partners in mixed marriages tend to play down their differences.

Stressing the Similarities
'Mixed marriage' is a sort of sociological term. It's not something people will actually use in everyday life. They tend to portray themselves as normal, and prefer to stress the similarities rather than focus on the differences. It is a way of avoiding confrontation with family members, and it keeps the relationship with parents and friends intact.

But a kind of superficiality was admitted by some of the people Miss Hondius interviewed. For example, a Dutch woman married to a Tunisian man said that although her family come to her home and enjoy her husband's hospitality, none of them ever asks her husband how he is, or how he feels about living in The Netherlands. They feel that she has chosen to live with this other person, so it's her responsibility and not something they care much about.

Muslim Family Values
The couples with the most difficulty, but who are also the most persistent in maintaining a good relationship with their families, are the Muslim-Dutch couples. The majority are Moroccan and Turkish men married to Dutch women. The Muslim partners are prepared to work hard at it, because they believe that the family is the most important thing you have.

Miss Hondius thinks she has identified an important characteristic of Dutch society, which she calls 'avoidance of difference'. She doesn't really like using the term 'tolerance'. "Because when you say 'I tolerate you' it means 'I'm in control, and I decide whether or not I accept you'. So it's a power thing. Acceptance is more neutral, because you can accept someone wholeheartedly. I think the more passive forms of tolerance become almost impossible to distinguish from indifference."

Into the Unknown
The mixed couples themselves are also often confronted with the unknown: the cultural differences between them. Miss Hondius found that these differences sometimes cause tension, but can also help solve arguments. The partners simply agree to disagree. After all, they are culturally different.

Another finding of Miss Hondius is that mixed couples have traditionally been reluctant to leave The Netherlands and emigrate to the country of origin of the non-Dutch partner. But she has noticed a change in the past 10 years, as the Internet and satellite telephones are making people feel less isolated. Now more people are prepared to travel.

A significantly higher proportion of mixed marriages still end in divorce compared to other marriages. But Miss Hondius says this differential is narrowing. In general, the Dutch have an ambivalent attitude to inter-ethnic couples: curiosity and fascination on the one hand, fear and concern on the other. Miss Hondius stresses that acceptance gradually grows as fear of the unknown is reduced.

New Problems
But nowadays, a different type of segregation is emerging. With the growing number of Muslim schools, there's a kind of spontaneous segregation between black and white schools in The Netherlands. This means fewer opportunities for young people of different ethnic and religious backgrounds to meet and get to know each other. This, in turn, will pose its own problems for future generations.



Effort and Courage are not enough without purpose and direction.

diederick
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It is off course typical Dutch to find everything from abroad much more valuable and interesting then the dreary Dutch culture. I would even call it a kind of exogene fetish. That could also be a reason why a considerable amount of mixed relations fail in the long run. When the exotic spell has faded away gradually, and the negative aspects of cultural differences play up then the real core of the relationship is challenged. And sometimes this real core is not present. I have seen that happen a lot, unfortunately.
An important issue in mixed relations (and then I mean people with different nationalities, who grew up in different countries) and often forgotten is the languageproblem. We use English as a sort of lingua franca. It is a foreign language for both of us, and we master it on a even level. If one of the partners has to use the language of the other, he or she will never be able to express him or herself as the other can. That can lead to frustrations (also in the long run), especially in emotional moments.



Cantiara
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Nice article Desi.

In my opinion, it wasn't all about 'tolerancy', but it was also about uncertainty avoidance of the Dutch society. The Dutch tend to score lower in uncertainty avoidance, than any other western culture, like british culture, or german culture, and that is why the level of tolerant toward others that they have is quite higher.


On 04-04-2004 20:04 diederick wrote:
It is off course typical Dutch to find everything from abroad much more valuable and interesting then the dreary Dutch culture. I would even call it a kind of exogene fetish. That could also be a reason why a considerable amount of mixed relations fail in the long run. When the exotic spell has faded away gradually, and the negative aspects of cultural differences play up then the real core of the relationship is challenged. And sometimes this real core is not present. I have seen that happen a lot, unfortunately.
An important issue in mixed relations (and then I mean people with different nationalities, who grew up in different countries) and often forgotten is the languageproblem. We use English as a sort of lingua franca. It is a foreign language for both of us, and we master it on a even level. If one of the partners has to use the language of the other, he or she will never be able to express him or herself as the other can. That can lead to frustrations (also in the long run), especially in emotional moments.


Uh uh.. I hope my exotic spells won't fade away Emoticon: Devil
I agree with the language barrier, but fortunately in my case, we use Dutch because my Dutch is fluent, and I never have problems in expressing my feeling.



diederick
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a
On 04-04-2004 20:30 Cantiara wrote:
. The Dutch tend to score lower in uncertainty avoidance, than any other western culture, like british culture, or german culture, and that is why the level of tolerant toward others that they have is quite higher. [BR.


Is that so? I thaught the Dutch score worldwide the highest in the possesion of insurances polices (is that good English for "polis"?). I mean, if that is not uncertainty avoidance par excellence!



Desi Clark
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Here’s my opinion about the advantages of having personal mixed relationship are:

1. Appreciate others cultures
2. Create crossover beauty images (yup..mix kids)
3. Dollar is stronger than Rupiah, so your family in Indonesia always considers you are rich.
4. The urge to practice your second language frequently (at least “slang”)
5. Given opportunity to have a higher education (those who live outside Indonesia)
6. Changes your lifestyle
7. Improve your foreign language.
8. Can help your family back home financially (for Indonesian)
9. Can live or stay in a foreign land easily and legally
10. sky mileages adds up at least once a year
11. Being equal is important  for those who live without a maid (e.g.: the laundry is no longer woman’s job nor diaper changes)
12. If you live in Indonesia, the opportunity to have your mix kids being part in sinetron or a model is wide open.
13. Bule is more romantic and a great lover too (no offense OK. Experience is the best teacher) He he he
14. Bule is open minded, and easy to talk to (again, no offense OK)
15. Through mixed relationship, we learn how to say “Please” and “Thank You”! (Yes, I am talking about manner – most Indonesian men are hardly saying thank you to their girlfriend, or wife, even to their children...”take it for granted” is best described---I am not stereotype, but I know some… hehehehe).

Now, the disadvantages are (from Asian Woman’s view):

1. Beer can be a competitor.
2. Bachelor Party often ends up at the strip club.
3. Sport Channel is a homepage on TV.
4. Lingo problem (but sometimes it benefits the couples – coz you won’t be offended if you don’t understands what he or she says).
5. Of course, we have to deal with culture shock!

I cannot think of anything else the disadvantages of having mixed relationship. So far, I have found more advantages…go ahead start your mix relationship TODAY!

Disclaimer:
DC bases the expression of the statement above on personal opinion and experience. No intention to stereotype neither anybody, nor any race.





Effort and Courage are not enough without purpose and direction.

Jeroen
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Desi,

At point 2 I would like to comment "Agree!" Emoticon: Yes!
At point 13 and 14 I would like to comment "Thanks" Emoticon: Shiny

Allthough I don't have experience on point 2 ( yet??? Emoticon: Blush )

The lingo problem I only have experienced as a benefit. If I don't understand I can ask it like 20 times, and then I will never forget it again. Emoticon: Clown



Desi Clark
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Jeroen,

You dont have experience with the Bachelor Party OR the Strip Club?

Emoticon: Wink


Effort and Courage are not enough without purpose and direction.

shuisheng
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= edit: please guy.. stop with that =



budowono1
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On 05-04-2004 11:04 shuisheng wrote:
= edit: please guy.. stop with that =
???

every 1 have rite to ecsress meaning



Jeroen
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On 05-04-2004 01:45 Desi Clark wrote:
Jeroen,

You dont have experience with the Bachelor Party OR the Strip Club?

Emoticon: Wink


nope.. to be honest I don't, but I don't have the feeling I miss something.. Emoticon: Smile



Jeroen
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On 06-04-2004 12:41 budowono1 wrote:
[...]
???

every 1 have rite to ecsress meaning


completely right, but that one was wayyyy offtopic.



budowono1
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i see.
but aboud the topic i don't beleef in mix cause there come only trouble with it cause the difrances are to big
in meaning of culture idealism the entire lifes are difrent so i don't aprove to these kind of changes




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