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sidia
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Hobo1

I think you are a real RARE bule.
I hope you are not dutch because RARE have another meaning in dutch.


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Some of the UU needs to be reviewed, in my opinion, to be more human.



sidia
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Agree ,maybe some must be renewed. Btw which one ?
That is the job of DPR / MPR (The People of Indonesia) .

Not some turist /foreigner will change because it obecause they have some trouble or inconvenience.


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principe
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Dear Mr Sidia,

My article in the Jakarta Post was edited by the newspaper. The last paragraph was missing. The result was that the punch line gave the impression that foremost I was tackling a KITAP/KITAS issue. In fact it was very much a pension issue indeed. You were quoting me without knowing it as I was the one following up on my own article in www.expat.or.id/info/dontcryformeindonesia.html.

However the point is that the lady when loosing her husband automatically was loosing her source of income as she is not entitled to enjoy her share of her husband's naval officer's pension SIMPLY BECAUSE SHE IS A FOREIGNER.

Loosing your husband and source of income results in Indonesia a change in your status as your SPONSOR ceased to exist. You have to find another sponsor.

My wife is an Indonesian Lawyer (10 years Kaligis and 10 years her own SALM law firm, just find in Google) handled this case and no law or regulation was found to lesson this situation. So much for going to court.

Yes, she could apply for Indonesian citizenship, yes she has Indo children as her sponsor and yes she has plenty of friends who can help out. But that was not the point. It was the pension law and regulation ruling out her right of her share of her late husband's pension. The only reason was her being a foreigner.

Suppose the woman was from a country with no solid social safety net, no kids, no in laws and no friends in Indonesia who could help out. She may want to ask for political asylum and hope she gets deported after rejection. At least she may save the burden of a ticket back home.

Hobo1 stated that nobody forces you to come to Indonesia. Such a remark is highly insensitive and shows a possible lack of grasping a 70 year old woman's responsible life long dedication. I just guess and hope Hobo1 is still too young or less experienced in marital life to really tune in on that.

The woman asked me to reply to you as follows. I loved my husband and I chose to stick with him for some 40 more years out of love for him and my kids. His wish was to retire in Indonesia and I followed. Should I have left him knowing that at the end of the road no financial glory was to be found?
Let the man know that being a white girl chasing off with a dark skinned man in the early fifties was a sure recipe for prejudice. In a way I already ate grass when I chose to follow him and was certainly not calculating the pension benefits upon my husbandís future demise.

The case drew attention also from the immigration department who contacted me to find out the details. They were relieved to know that their laws were not those questioned directly. It was the pension laws and regulations that were criticized but they did acknowledge the fact that a loss of income puts the lady in an awkward position also KITAP/KITAS wise as a new local sponsor must be found. The lady will therefore definitely have to rely on others and will depend on charity. Please note that acting as a sponsor can be done without even donating a penny to the subject in casu ! The Irony is that even a far wealthier foreign woman than her sponsor still has to find the local bloke to sponsor! I wonder who is benefiting from whom in such a case?

Mr Sidia point 4 of your remark does not find justice in Indonesian Law but simply is a matter of human and social behavior. Nobody has to do anything outside the framework of a countriesí law. And as far as the Navy goes they did let him down massively.

For the record the lady is not Dutch. Eating grass was a idiomatic expression. The decorations were from the Dutch Navy, The Indonesian Navy and the Italian Government. They stretched from services during WOII up to 1963. The lady was not urging me to write her case. She accepted her situation with grace though very disappointed. It was I who wanted to make it public after my wife handled the case.

Thank you




sidia
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On 05-10-2005 05:59 principe wrote:


Yes, she could apply for Indonesian citizenship, yes she has Indo children as her sponsor and yes she has plenty of friends who can help out. But that was not the point. It was the pension law and regulation ruling out her right of her share of her late husbands pension. The only reason was her being a foreigner.

Mr Sidia point 4 of your remark does not find justice in Indonesian Law but simply is a matter of human and social behavior. Nobody has to do anything outside the framework of a countriesí law. And as far as the Navy goes they did let him down massively.

. Eating grass was a idiomatic expression.

Thank you


I know Eating grass was an idiomatic expression , maybe like the indonesian expression makan rumput.
In this case I am sure it didnot hapenned en will not happened.
I understand the problem/ the tragedy of the lady and her childeren.My sympathy, it could happened to me.
I also know the problems in indopnesia if you seek for right.

Still I am not agree about your opinion.
Do you have read the opinions of some people in this fora ?, they think there no law in indonesia and you can buy everything.
Sometimes it happened , but in this case everyone can learn that Law is still Law ALSO in Indonesia .
You must go to the court.
Even a widow af a high ranking decorated off. can get trouble .

Yes it is a tragedy , and I also know what the pensions is , my aunty is a widow of a col. , her pension is peanuts , only enough for uang bumbu .
Also the pensions of one or two stars is not much .
I know also the trouble if you have a status as foreigner (in my case in holland) and maybe in the future for my wife in indonesia .



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principe
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Mr Sidia, I am a bit confused about what opinion of mine you cannot agree upon ?
I am aware that in Indonesia there is a law. I already mentioned my wife is a practising trial lawyer, both civil and criminal. Indonesian law is based on the "Oud Burgerlijk Wetboek or OBW."

The point is that this pension law and regulation and its consequences for the lady in this particular case put her in a very unpleasant situation. I think nobody is disagreeing on that. If you mean that she just has to cope with it because that is the way things are than again she is coping with it.

But if you mean that we have just have to abide without pointing out its discriminitaive nature than I have to disagree. We should scrutinize these discriminative laws. That is the way slavery was abolished, colonialism, apartheid and fortunately many more injustices based on any form of discrimination.

Currently a law has been prepared for DPR debate regarding all the inns and outs of mixed mariages. Some editorials in Indonesian papers have even hinted at the consequences of my letter without mentioning it specifically.

If that letter may contribute to shape a less discriminative judicial system towards foreigners in Indonesia than I can only say that it was worth it.

I hope you agree.

bst rgrds




sidia
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On 29-09-2005 13:10 Agung wrote:


Now, here we have a 70-year-old woman being told to get lost, eat grass or at best find another Indonesian bloke to sponsor her "much appreciated stay".

by ASHER TAURAN Jakarta
The Jakarta Post
August 21, 2005
www.expat.or.id/info/dontcryformeindonesia.html


I dont agree only with above part .
But I understand the problem / tragedy and my sympathy is for the lady and her childeren.
I always think that the navy have a beter organisation in compare with the army / airforce .
And I hope that they will change the law.



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principe
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Dear Mr. Sidia,

Nobody told this woman literally to get lost, literally to eat grass, literrally ti find another bloke to sponsor her stay.

Yet, suppose the woman (or man) had no Indonesian children, no Indonesian in laws and no Indonesian friends who would or want to act as her sponsor and suppose this lady did rely on her husbands pension only for her personal needs then she simply could not feed herself, she could not stay in the country and she should find somebodey to sponsor her. Those are the facts as a consequence of this flaw in this particular regulation

Albeit the case would be extreme, it is far from unlikely to occur as an immigration officer told me by phone recently. These cases do occur but rarely surface as nobody really takes the time to expose them.

The article punch line was not the one you quoted. My article was missing the last paragraph which was a warning to all foreigners wanting to marry an Indonesian citizen and might one day find her/himself depending on the spouses civil servant's pension, to make sure plenty of savings are secured in case of the spouses demise. He/she will need it, espescially when his/her home country does not provide for a social security income.

Please note that many Indonesians are married not only to Europeans, Americans, Australians, Canadians and other westeners with a solid social safety net in their homeland.

You may not like the idiomatic expression as it may sound cynical. Yet that same cysnism may have contributed in sparking quite a debate not only in this forum. And as I said, if this results in modifying this rather discriminitive regulation it was worth it, including the cynism.

Any input about possible navy benefits from your side I am not aware of would be very welcomed.

bst rgds





sidia
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On 06-10-2005 04:53 principe wrote:


My article was missing the last paragraph which was a warning to all foreigners wanting to marry an Indonesian citizen and might one day find her/himself depending on the spouses civil servants pension, to make sure plenty of savings are secured in case of the spouses demise. He/she will need it, espescially when his/her home country does not provide for a social security income.

Please note that many Indonesians are married not only to Europeans, Americans, Australians, Canadians and other westeners with a solid social safety net in their homeland.

You may not like the idiomatic expression as it may sound cynical. Yet that same cysnism may have contributed in sparking quite a debate not only in this forum.

And as I said, if this results in modifying this rather discriminitive regulation it was worth it, including the cynism.
bst rgds


Our discussion is now about mixedcouple in general and the modifying of the law (U.U. Perkawinan -Perkawinan Campuran).

Part 3 : Yes , I dont like it.
Because as you can read in this forum some people read it literaly and make fun of it .

Part 1.2 : Yes, it is good to warn all the foreigners that Indonesia have a law.
Because you can also read how some of them thinking about the Law in Indonesia.

Part 4 : It is yr choise .You are free.




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principe
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Mr Sidia,

I sense an understandable frustration as an Indonesian to read about this Indonesia bashing. It is not nice and it may hurt one's feeling and pride as an Indonesian, espescially when you are in a foreign country.

Often this Indonesia bashing is based on prejudice rather than accurate information. In such cases I always tend to look at the facts and try to distance myself from any form of "nationalistic feelings". Emotions are fact finding killers as I call them.

One would show maturity if not wisdom to stand above all this emotional Indonesia bashing without loosing an eye for the facts. Introspection and self criticism may well be virtues. In fact they might clean up the mess so to speak, out of which Indonesians can pride themselves.

I have been in your shoes some 15 years ago. I know what it can feel like to hear only bad things about my country. When something happened in my country my friends would ask me often, not without disdain, how things can be so messed up.

It forced me to "defend" myself looking for details to counter the "accusations". Yet, once back in my own country I did realize that indeed it was a mess as described by TV footages and news reports. Sometimes it was even worse once I got the feeling of it all. And I resented it to have to aknowledge that all that bashing was not baseless.

That is the moment that you just let go of your misplaced feeling of nationalism and adopt a feeling of genuine love for your roots. The one that makes you face the dirt. Simply because you love your country and your people and do not want to see them hurt...yes by my own people !

bst rgds





sidia
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On 06-10-2005 12:29 principe wrote:

I sense an understandable frustration as an Indonesian to read about this Indonesia bashing. It is not nice and it may hurt ones feeling and pride as an Indonesian, espescially when you are in a foreign country.


It depends which persoon talk to me .
Mostly I dont care , cuek aja lha.


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notisme
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On 01-10-2005 15:12 hobo1 wrote:
Having lived in Indonesia for 6 years as a bule (I like that term better than tourist - I certainly am NOT a tourist) I dont cry for any foreigner who lives here. The first time anyone goes to the Immigration Office they understand they are a guest in a foreign country - and a very culturally, socially unique foreign country it is. Anyone who spends his or her time here, and gets married here, and especially has a child here is simply a bodoh if they do not know the rules that govern the country - and the process for following those rules.

No one forces you to come here; no one forces you to invest your life here. Surely after one or two years you know how everything works here. Property, health care, marriage divorce, kids - and how to make everything run smoothly or you leave in tears. This is Indonesia as it exists today, yesterday and tomorrow - it may change for the better or the worse. Paradise is in the eyes of the beholder. If you dont like it, go home. Assuming you are not a citizen, you can go back home to your mother country.
if you are not a tourist what about the lady in question that lived there at least all of her childrens lives surely that does not make her a tourist either. happy day


the only thing i know is nothing and even thats too much

searching
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If you can't see the ugly part of Indonesia, how can you say you love Indonesia, Sidia?
So Principe, you are a writer as well. I would take off my hat for you in this writing of yours, if I wore one this time.


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sidia
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searcher

There is diff. between only seeing the bad side or both side,s the bad side and good side.
Because I am living abroad I can see and maybe better than some people in indonesia , because the "distance'" .
And I maybe have "more " entries / information.(tv, newspaper).
I try to think as an observer , not as participants.
And in fact I am and feel as an "observer" because the problems there not directly hit myself , friends or family.

The difference between me and the other observers (foreigners/outsiders) is
maybe the fact that I have some(of course not much) knowledge /experience abt . the socialstructure and some times a little bit inside information from friends.



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sglange
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[quote] On 02-10-2005 01:11 sidia wrote:
[quote] On 02-10-2005 00:43 putri wrote:
Hello all,

I agree that it is time to review the law and judge in Indonesia. Out of the corruption stroy, on top of it, of course.
Indonesian law is unbelievable old and irrational. If you read the Undang-undang kewarganegaraan, me as a woman, I am treated like shit ! And I dont understand a word of it, because it is using bahasa indonesia from year of I dont even know which one, but surely far away before I was born.
-----------------------------------------
** I think I am a little bit older than you , and I have no education at all , but I can read and understand the Undang Undang .
The Undang Undang Kewarganegaraan no 62 1958 is not very old.

[/quote]

Undang2 Tentang Perkawinan Campuran & Kewarganegaraan was under review sometime in June/July 2005 but its under K.I.V. for the time being and for what ever reason I do not know.
Yes, there is no justice for Indonesian ladies married to WNA and at times when I bring up the issue with my wife, she will go into tears because we are not able to lead normal lives as husband & wife in Indonesia. Most of the time I will be in Singapore & she will be over there in Jateng. Even though she can come over to live in Singapore but does not want it cause the pace of life is totally different. No matter what the situation is, and no matter what the Undangs2 states, we are still husband & wife. I do know & believe that there will be changes to the current undang-undang, only thing have to be patient because things do move too slow in Indonesia.



sidia
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On 11-11-2005 15:52 sglange wrote:

...


No matter what the situation is, and no matter what the Undangs2 states, we are still husband & wife.

I do know & believe that there will be changes to the current undang-undang, only thing have to be patient because things do move too slow in Indonesia.


a. Yes , of course , but what happened if you both get childeren.
What is their nationalty .What about property /ownership , heritage from yr wife etc .

b.Acc the U.U. kewarganegaraan , you can have the indon.Nationality after 5 Jr (?) living in Indonesia , but I I have read somewhere that they will change it to 10 yr.(?) .

Reason the abuse of the law by many foreigner and to protect the indonesian woman.
Because the so called "fakemarriage" (=schijnhuwelijk) .


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