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Agung
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Several articles have been written on the blatant discrimination that exists in Indonesian law regarding mixed marriages. Allow me to add another angle to that story and as far as I know, it has not been scrutinized before.

It regards a mixed couple who spent more than 48 years together in marriage. Ever since they married, the expatriate wife dedicated her life to being a housewife and to taking care of their children, while her Indonesian husband as a decorated naval officer and later a non-commissioned local embassy staff member in a foreign country, took care of their daily bread. They decided to spend the final part of their lives as a pensioned couple in Indonesia.

When her Indonesian husband passed away recently, she informed the administrative body that handled the naval officer's pension of her husband's death. They informed her that they had never encountered such a case before and started to dig into the prevailing laws and regulations. They came up with the following token of gratitude: "A foreigner (in this case the widow) is not entitled to receive her Indonesian husband's pension for more than three months after her husband's date of death."

Why? "Well, because you are a foreigner." Courtesy of the Indonesian government.

And while you are at it "be sure to sell your inherited property as that will end up in the Indonesian government's hands after one year, if it still happens to be under the widow's name".

Now, here we have a 70-year-old woman being told to get lost, eat grass or at best find another Indonesian bloke to sponsor her "much appreciated stay".

by ASHER TAURAN Jakarta
The Jakarta Post
August 21, 2005
www.expat.or.id/info/dontcryformeindonesia.html



Yogya-Bali
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Take this one. The Indonesian husband of a foreign lady passed away in Yogya. They have a child with the Indonesian nationality.
What happened? She had to leave the country because there was nobody anymore to sponsor her and if she wanted she could leave her child with her parents-in-law or take it with her (fortunately the French law is human enough to grant the child entry to French).
Who drags the Indonesian government for an international court? This country breaks so many international laws/rules of humanity.



Agung
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I agree that Indonesia is breaking international laws with these issues.

Just a quick jump around the internet gives this:
Universal Declaration of Human Rights. (Signed by Indonesia)

Article 2.
Everyone is entitled to all the rights and freedoms set forth in this Declaration, without distinction of any kind, such as race, colour, sex, language, religion, political or other opinion, national or social origin, property, birth or other status. Furthermore, no distinction shall be made on the basis of the political, jurisdictional or international status of the country or territory to which a person belongs, whether it be independent, trust, non-self-governing or under any other limitation of sovereignty.

Article 3.
Everyone has the right to life, liberty and security of person.

Article 5.
No one shall be subjected to torture or to cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment

Article 7.
All are equal before the law and are entitled without any discrimination to equal protection of the law. All are entitled to equal protection against any discrimination in violation of this Declaration and against any incitement to such discrimination.

Article 9.
No one shall be subjected to arbitrary arrest, detention or exile.

Article 13.
(1) Everyone has the right to freedom of movement and residence within the borders of each state.
(2) Everyone has the right to leave any country, including his own, and to return to his country.

Article 15.
(1) Everyone has the right to a nationality.
(2) No one shall be arbitrarily deprived of his nationality nor denied the right to change his nationality.

Article 16.
(1) Men and women of full age, without any limitation due to race, nationality or religion, have the right to marry and to found a family. They are entitled to equal rights as to marriage, during marriage and at its dissolution.
(2) Marriage shall be entered into only with the free and full consent of the intending spouses.
(3) The family is the natural and fundamental group unit of society and is entitled to protection by society and the State.

Article 17.
(1) Everyone has the right to own property alone as well as in association with others.
(2) No one shall be arbitrarily deprived of his property

As you can see, there comes no end to it.







Yogya-Bali
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Well probably if you confrontate the Indonesian authorities with this they won't change a thing with their defiant attitude.



Yogya-Bali
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This is the dark side of Indonesia which a lot of people don't want to see.



sidia
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And you can go to ------------ ?



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sidia
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Don't cry for me Indonesia :
Now, here we have a 70-year-old woman being told to get lost, eat grass or at best find another Indonesian bloke to sponsor her "much appreciated stay".
by ASHER TAURAN Jakarta
The Jakarta Post
Shame on you Mr Tauran.

Tendentious title MR Tauran .
1.Because it is not directly an immigration issue but a pension issue.
2.She can get the indonesia Nationality UU Kewarganegaraan 1958
3..She can go to the court.
4.Her Childeren and or her Indonesian Family in law will or must help her .
She does not have to eat grass.


Btw :. Which article of the human right is broken ?



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Yogya-Bali
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Come on Sidia, be realistic. Yes there is a law in Indonesia but it only functions when you pay. No pay, no cure.
In theory this woman probably can get the Indonesian nationality but in reality it will cost you so much money that actually - if you are not rich - you can forget it. I can give you a lot of examples of foreign women who want to follow the nationality of their Indonesian husband but everytime there is something.... And it's all about money.
And yes it is also an immigration issue because without any income a foreigner is not allowed to stay on a KITAS.
Forget the law. When it is already not functioning for Indonesians, what more for foreigners who don't have any rights at all in this xenophobic country.



sidia
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Y-B.
Yes there is law in R.I.
Normal way by the law.
It is not always easy (it is true ) BUT you can get yr right if you have that right.
IF not you can try to get it , and YES you must pay for lawyers , adminstrationfee , begin with Pak RT,RW, Kelurahan , Kecamatan , The Court(Pengadilan Negeri, Pengadilan Tinggi ).That is the normal situation , valid for all Indonesian = 240. jt indonesian (plus Kitas,Kipas holders) .

Another way Emoticon: Nooo ot Legal
Of course You must Pay a LOT of money , even you can broke the law with corrupt civilservants . That is also true.
But that is against the law.

abt the tendentious article : (--plus eating grass ).
A widow of a decorated naval officer ? , I don't think that the Indon. Naval will let her down.She can get help. If not she has faily and maybe children.

I also know that a widow of a high ranking officer f.e a colonel , even an one star general is not much. But she has always family and maybe children.

About her property , she can get the heritance free of charge (by the law) and give it to her son/family with ONLY 5% tax (schenkingrecht) , the son/family must pay also 5% tax.(total 10%). That is by law.
Plus de normal fee for the legal Route (RT-RW etc).Thus without sogok, everything is Legal.And who will harm a widow of a naval decorated officer ??
She have also friends and family and the navalfriends of her late husband.

That is the reality in Indonesia.




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Agung
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Hi Sidia,
you asked which of the laws is broken. It depends on how you see them: with a magnifying glass over the words like a lawyer, or try to understand what the text means like a human being. If you do it using the human way then you'll see lots of problems with how this woman was treated.

Yes, it's true after so many years in Indonesia it's very likely that she's found the usual way around all this shit, but on the other hand this are not just things happening in a dark alley, but it's coming from the Indonesia law book.

By the way, the good news about this article is that this issue is now under discussion in Indonesia after all these years. Finally people realize that these things are not normal. I hope it will a first step to do something about it.

Best Regards.

A.A.



sidia
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Agung . it is a lot difference from the Keperimanusiaan (indonesian word) and if you go to the court, specialy if you go to Internationale Hof (The Hague).
Abt permits to live and work it is almost universal , see also your own Vreemdelingenwet , the Rules/ birocracy , and MRS Rita Verdonk and her 120 % income regulation . ( the only minster with balls ) .

Yes it is a good news if it comes to the attention of the people , but people must wait until the law changed.Or try to changed the Law.

But for this moment , the law is the law.They say the same in Den Haag and at the Courts.
P.S : for yr info I am also golongan mix couple.
That is why I can say something about that problem.



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Agung
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Hi Sidia,
You’re right, when we apply the international laws to the Netherlands there are also quite a few "problems", but these are of another magnitude.

In my view, in Holland the problem is the opposite. That is for a long time the laws about immigration have been weak and therefore abused. (we all know the stories from the past: getting married on Friday, the spouse getting a passport on Monday and divorce on Tuesday....) But since then the regulations have been changed quite a lot and Holland should be careful not to go from one extreme to the other.

Regarding the 120% I always wonder how other people are supposed to live from 100%, since the government admits this is not enough.



sidia
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Agung ,

the same in Indonesia , there is a Law , and also international obligation , but the people is weak and or some of them is corrupt.
That is why I always say to foreigners , please respect the Indonesian law , otherwise you can get big problems.
Even indonesian/ people who respect the laws are some times weak and get not their right , and how can a foreigner broke the indonesian law without expecting sanction ?


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Yogya-Bali
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Well I agree that there is a law in Indonesia but it is not functioning (and then even that law is outdated). There is an absence of justice; the main reason why investors neglect the country. It is wellknown, investigated by international organizations and published in international magazines that the law in Indonesia is very weak. Without any bribes you can forget it to get any justice.
Probably I live in an other Indonesia than Sidia and probably Sidia is no foreigner (bule) so will not have that many problems as the walking "dompets" (wallets). A lot of foreigners are respecting the law but the Indonesian authorities don't respect it and abuse the law to collect money.
Did you know that the police is still fining foreigners for not reporting at the police while this law is already 4 years ago abolished? They don't have any respect for their own laws but try to get as much money as possible with wrong information and threaten foreigners.



Agung
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Hello Yogya-Bali,
you're sure that you don't have to report to the police anymore? Would be nice to be sure.

Yes, you're right they use the law to make money. My impression is that some of these laws were long ago made to enable the police to get some extra money from foreigners. This is because they didn't have the money to pay them a normal salary and were angry and jealous about the "walking dompets". By allowing the police to become corrupt they've let the devil out of the bottle.

Of course they've hurt themselves the most by doing this. Any foreign company thinks more than twice before they invest in Indonesia.



sidia
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yes , sidia is not a bule , indonesian national , now lost in amsterdam .
since 1979 have never report his bule wifes if he is playing turist in indonesia.(never heard such silly regulation )Some times many years ago there are officials who make the mistake seeing sidia as a tourist but they also can see an indonesian with stress and almost mata gelap.(have a lot of juicy stories)
I have live in Jakarta , a big jungle with dangerous situation. But still my city with a lot of family and friends


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Agung
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Since a long time both my wife and I are called touris in Bali. Yes, touris without the t. Thank God they don't use the word bule there. Touris or tamu just sounds an awful lot more friendly. Emoticon: Smile



Yogya-Bali
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Yes, but you never will get off that predicate of tourist in Bali although it bursts out of foreigners who are (semi-)permanent residents. This shows a definitely lack of interest in the presence of foreigners in your area.
Probably the only thing which counts in Bali is money.
That's quite different in Java. After a while the Javanese start to see the difference between a temporarily tourist and a resident and allthough you're called a bule, they become more interested in you then only your wallet.
That's the difference between Bali (equal to Benidorm and Ibiza) and Jawa or any other island in the archipelago (which is really Indonesia).



Yogya-Bali
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About reporting at the police: yes, that is true but better pay a small amount or otherwise they start hunting you with something else to squeeze some money out of you. They always will find something, and that's the lack of protection by the law and lack of justice (not lack of laws!!).
After all, it's not that much money and you get some new friends Emoticon: Devil Emoticon: Bye bye



sidia
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On 01-10-2005 12:24 Yogya-Bali wrote

After all, its not that much money and you get some new friends Emoticon: Devil Emoticon: Bye bye


Agree , a practical solution.
Not principial , but sometimes you must chose it.



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hobo1
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Having lived in Indonesia for 6 years as a bule (I like that term better than tourist - I certainly am NOT a tourist) I don't cry for any foreigner who lives here. The first time anyone goes to the Immigration Office they understand they are a guest in a foreign country - and a very culturally, socially unique foreign country it is. Anyone who spends his or her time here, and gets married here, and especially has a child here is simply a bodoh if they do not know the rules that govern the country - and the process for following those rules.

No one forces you to come here; no one forces you to invest your life here. Surely after one or two years you know how everything works here. Property, health care, marriage divorce, kids - and how to make everything run smoothly or you leave in tears. This is Indonesia as it exists today, yesterday and tomorrow - it may change for the better or the worse. Paradise is in the eyes of the beholder. If you don't like it, go home. Assuming you are not a citizen, you can go back home to your mother country.


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Yogya-Bali
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That's true. Just live your life here or leave. But that doesn't mean you're not allowed to have any critics.
I am quite convenient with my life here but sometimes it's disturbed like for today with the bombs which is gonna cost me and a lot others a lot of money.



putri
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Hello all,

I agree that it is time to review the law and judge in Indonesia. Out of the corruption stroy, on top of it, of course.
Indonesian law is unbelievable old and irrational. If you read the Undang-undang kewarganegaraan, me as a woman, I am treated like shit ! And I don't understand a word of it, because it is using bahasa indonesia from year of I don't even know which one, but surely far away before I was born. The position of foreigner is basically not exist, as they came from other planet without rules and undang-undang.When I was in Indonesia, I do not realise that, since I never get in touch with any regulations or law, (I stay out of all those "difficult things to understand" . But now, I just want to know what is actually my right on my children as Indonesian mother who are marrying a foreigner, basically , I do not have any right at all. Or what is my husband rights towards the fact that he; smarrying me, Indonesian woman in Indonesia, well... actually nothing in particular, he's still using tourist visa, it;s much easier than mentioning him as husband. I can understand if 60 years ago they haven't thought about these facts on rules, regulations and law for foreigners circulations, due to the fact that Indonesia was busy to release himself from foreign influence, looking for their own identity as a nation, but now, in super modern millenium, you can't just trust what granddad&grandma told, without seeing other alternatives. If you do not have any law level which you can respect, and you can trust, and you can rely on, I believe, as a nation you would not going further than what it is right now.
Well, of course, this deeply thought on undang-undang and law, not only about foreigner's circumstances, but also for indonesian theirselves,should come from our "Indonesian cum laudes" and law practicians, by being open to critics and opinions, and by being aware of changing and development of all other nation's. So at least you can see why they go to university, and what a cum laude means.



diederick
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On 01-10-2005 15:12 hobo1 wrote:
Having lived in Indonesia for 6 years as a bule (I like that term better than tourist - I certainly am NOT a tourist) I dont cry for any foreigner who lives here. The first time anyone goes to the Immigration Office they understand they are a guest in a foreign country - and a very culturally, socially unique foreign country it is. Anyone who spends his or her time here, and gets married here, and especially has a child here is simply a bodoh if they do not know the rules that govern the country - and the process for following those rules.

No one forces you to come here; no one forces you to invest your life here. Surely after one or two years you know how everything works here. Property, health care, marriage divorce, kids - and how to make everything run smoothly or you leave in tears. This is Indonesia as it exists today, yesterday and tomorrow - it may change for the better or the worse. Paradise is in the eyes of the beholder. If you dont like it, go home. Assuming you are not a citizen, you can go back home to your mother country.


With this attitude nothing will change ever.



sidia
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[quote] On 02-10-2005 00:43 putri wrote:
Hello all,

I agree that it is time to review the law and judge in Indonesia. Out of the corruption stroy, on top of it, of course.
Indonesian law is unbelievable old and irrational. If you read the Undang-undang kewarganegaraan, me as a woman, I am treated like shit ! And I dont understand a word of it, because it is using bahasa indonesia from year of I dont even know which one, but surely far away before I was born.
-----------------------------------------
** I think I am a little bit older than you , and I have no education at all , but I can read and understand the Undang Undang .
The Undang Undang Kewarganegaraan no 62 1958 is not very old.




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