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sidia
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Abt the so called thousands of refugees :

You can also read (indonesian) :
Via Google : 23 wni ditahan , see also web gaul forum , you can find the link to the american department of justice (Mr . Paul J Mc Nulty)


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londoh
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On 25-09-2005 10:20 sidia wroteWhat kind of relation.?
If the Indonesian can stand as a nation(NKRI) they dont need the kangaroos .
What can australia give to indonesia ?


Very strange thinking Menir Sidia you might forget the most important things : investement,knowledge etc. etc. But we know Indonesia don't like it's neighbours. The good old "rasa minder" toh, so ennemies are everywhere, especially the neighbours Emoticon: Shiny

Gruces



sidia
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Yes , what can australia give to indonesia beside wol , lambs meat and kanguru ?
Indonesia have more resources than australia s? Oil , gold , bauxiet , you named it . Maybe uranium ? Or the knowledge to make an atom reactor .?
Maybe .
It is better to work together with the ASEAN counrtries , Japan , China , India.
Even with their old vriend in europe , the Dutch.



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londoh
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I think Indonesia better doesn't work together witn any country, because there is always something wrong, jadi R.P.I. Republik Petani Indonesia like Cina under Chairman Mao and after that RIP Republik Indonesia Pecah Emoticon: Bye bye a collection of small countries and leave Java alone. As most of the problems Indonesia is suffering have their roots in the Javanese domination.

Gruces



sidia
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Wrong thinking Mister londoh ,
The javanese have more political power because their number , one man - one vote , it is democracy.Like the so called western democracy.
A javanese is in the first place an Indonesian in the NKRI .Like the Lampungs , the Baduys , the ambonese , the Kai 's , Menadonese etc etc.
That is why they must stand together .
Indonesia have also some influence and good relationship like the A.A. countries and the ASEAN COUNTRIES.


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londoh
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Of course wrong thinking, I see another country than you have ever known. A country where 50 % of the state budget is spent on fuel subsidies and the other 50% on corruption, so no money due to mismanagement. A country that cannot even produce a bycycle without foreign help. What they produce over there are children and most of all stories, about all the good in Indonesia and all the bad from "luar negri"

The Javanese domination has nothing to do with democracy as it exists since Ir.Soekarno became president. You should hear how people on the outer islands think about Java (in private) especially the Papuan's and the Acehnese.

Maybe I have to change the expression Javanese domination in Jakarta domination as Java also knows 80% poor people, but they are Javanese, right or wrong My Jowo toh Emoticon: Yeah right!



sascha
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Sidia why u feel the need to defend ur country?? And defend the once that never got cought?? Nationalism is the stupidest thing.
In germany also some people like to defend why we started WW2 or put up stories bout the jews(same as many muslims do Emoticon: Wink ).
But most accept the guilt n shame.
U cant deny what happened in may 1998, u cant just deny the thousand something dead chinese, the pictures of babaric rape n murder. The people that did that live besides u even now, coz nobody puts them to justice. And they will influence the next generation, as did the killers back from 1965, that also never where punished and are proud of their actions even today.
Some 10.000 of chinese fled the country because they were in fear. Now u bring up 2000 or 3000 who used stories that may not happened to themselfs to get asylum in 199 9 We know chinese are tricky, maybe they were the more onfortunate who used what happened n seeked a better life.
But what should that prove?? Just that Indonesian make up a conspiracy theory that they were tricked. Remembers me about all the stories of september 11th and so on.
Indonesians dont know much uncensored about ther past why should they change that about there recent past.

And Londoh is right u need Australia, as every other rich country around. Coz u live in a 3rd world country and u need every investment and knowledge u can get.



sascha
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On 25-09-2005 13:43 londoh wrote:
Of course wrong thinking, I see another country than you have ever known. A country where 50 % of the state budget is spent on fuel subsidies and the other 50% on corruption, so no money due to mismanagement. A country that cannot even produce a bycycle without foreign help.


Hey londoh

Wasn't it you who talked so positive about corruption??

One pays for a service, some call that corruption, as it hurts their bankaccount. If you need a passport in the Netherlands in one day how much does that cost ? There is nothing wrong in giving something extra for a service, seen the low salaries.

and

If one stays in Indonesia one has to adapt to the culture and don't tell what is right or wrong, that was before 1942 !!!!! Misselijk gedrag.



Emoticon: Nice Emoticon: Nice Emoticon: Nice Emoticon: Devil
I like ur opinion today much better. Emoticon: Bye bye



sidia
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Sascha ,
No one is denying about something wrong or awfull in 1998.
The world can see it thanks to CNN/BBC etc etc.
But there are ALSO LIES about the Horor stories told by the so called refugees.
And every simple minded people have believed their stories and tell it futher in the Net.


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Albert
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Suks?

Must be nice for Gay guys. Emoticon: Yawn


Wil je ook meester van je eigen leven zijn? http://www.goudenera.nl

Agung
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The javanese have more political power because their number , one man - one vote , it is democracy.Like the so called western democracy.
I think the javanese also have more power because they're close to the centre of power: Jakarta.
Then, western democracy is more than "one man, one vote." It also demands respect for the interests of minorities. Or to put it bluntly: democracy is not that the halve plus 1 decides to kill the other halve... Emoticon: Puh!

Indonesia have also some influence and good relationship like the A.A. countries and the ASEAN COUNTRIES
Indonesia having good relations with other countries? Which country? Antartica maybe?

Regards,

A.A.




sidia
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Good relationship (not only in the past ) with the Asian African Countries , = one of the promotors ,with the ASEAN Countries (one of the biggest member),
and the Islamic Countries(one of the biggest Muslim Country).
They have also special relationship with the Belandas , their gate to Europe.



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sidia
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Agung

Several times I read about the Javanese , the so called javanese kolonialism etc etc , en some people blaming the javanese for some troubles in Indonesia.
It is bullshit , (in dutch = gelul 1ste klas) because according the statisic( 2004) there are only +/- 70 miljons Javanese (midle and east Java).
For your information , people in west java are Sundanese.
There are 241 miljons indonesian , the javanese are a minority group.(30%)
What is the influence of a minority group in a democratic election. ?
Only 30% (if they decided to vote against the other grups).

And IF the other 70% donot want live together with their javanese brothers / sisters , they can also make their own choise , EVEN abandon the NKRI.
United in diversity. That is the answer.


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sascha
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You are not that well with numbers sidia Emoticon: Nice Javanese make up for 45 % of all indonesians. They are the largest ethnic group in indonesia. Followed by Sundanese 14%, Madurese 7.5%, coastal Malays 7.5%, other smaller groups 26%.
As those all have different goals they wont bring up a coalition against the javanese supremacy. Most parties are big javanese parties, what chance stands a local madurese party that maybe gets 80 percent of madurese votes which then makes only 6% for the whole of indonesia.
Politic is centralized in Jakarta not medan or elsewhere. If Indonesia becomes more federal like with Aceh this might change.
And we see how easy it is to abandon the NKRI, just have a look at irian yaya, aceh and east timur. Emoticon: Stupid Emoticon: Stupid The majority of people in these regions want seperation, but some people in jakarta decide differently.




sidia
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Sascha :
According SUSEDA Jabar www.pikiran-rakyat.com : Sundanese 39140.000 (2004)

JaTeng : 33.000.000 + D.I.Y 3000.000 (2004)
JaTim : 37.000.000 (2004)
Total Javanese people : +/- 73 milj. or 73/241x 100%= +/- 30,3%.

It seems you have another source , where is the Deutsche Grundlichkeit ??



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sascha
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Ya should alsways include my source. I rely on the data of the CIA factbookwww.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/id.html
Whatever numbers u use, javanese stay the largest ethnic group. Thats the only important point of my previous post.



viera
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hmmm....
just wanna say... YESS indonesia law Emoticon: Stupid but who was made 1st?
so dont blam indonesian ppl dong...
peace man... MERDEKA!!!



sidia
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On 27-09-2005 07:29 sascha wrote:
I rely on the data of the CIA factbook
Whatever numbers u use, javanese stay the largest ethnic group. Thats the only important point of my previous post.


ACH SO ,
yes almost everyone trust / rely the american.
Like the theatre at the United Nation regarding the so called WMD , poor Colin Power.
It is not your fault .

That is the problem or difficulties if a foreigner or tourist or simple minded people are judging without enougf knowledge.They are folowing other people, believing stories , sometimes lies in internet sites , look like sheeps and lemmings. It is pity.

Please check it in other sites , Indonesian Sites like de Buro Pusat Statistik.
And come back again with yr comment.





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londoh
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Yes, sudah 60 thn Merdeka and still a mess. Who is to blame ?

rgrds, Londoh



sidia
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A mess ?
It is realative , in compare with what ?

Only the politician and some simple minded people (too much) are blaming others for their own missery .
Yes IF necessary they even blame the Santa Claus.





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Jeroen
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About population statistics:
http://indahnesia.com/Scripts/(...)ion_by_province.html

which originates from BPS
http://www.bps.go.id/sector/po(...)ulation/table1.shtml

Because it's very slow, I copied is for you all.



londoh
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A mess in my simple mind Emoticon: Shiny When I arrived in 1990 in RI there where very good things going on, there was "harapan" Indonesian people were very optimistic abt their future, many bisnismen came in to do their trade.

In 1998 their was a revolusi rakyat called "reformasi" but it was a revolusi without an idea behind, powerless, just to show people were not very satisfied. Reformasi became deformasi, an empty word. Just look at the roads, the quality of trains, the mess in the cities and so much more, the depressive thinking, suiciderates etc. 50 % of the people have to live with 2 US$ or less a day, in potentially one of he richest countries in the world. 40 % of the state budget is corrupted,the remainder is used for fuel sbsidies. Most of this fuel is burned in too expensive cars bought with "hasil korupsi" with very thirsty engines or smuggled out of the country.

That is what I call a mess, but silakan to think different just close your eyes Om Sidia and think Right or wrong, my country Emoticon: Yeah right! In my opinion it is like you don't fucking care, a typical Indonesian attitude.



sidia
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Actually the Reformasi movement is not from the common people(the man in the street = Jan Pierloo met de Pet).The Jan Pierloos are only the instrument.
Like the Angkatan 66 , the movement is lead by students(and others?) .
But they have change Indonesia.It is fact.

I follow Indonesia more than 30 years , and despite koruption, ethnic troubles (read conflict of interest) , I have seen progress in income , health , education etc etc.
See statistics figures.That is not an opinion.

What is wrong about nationalism , I love Indonesia (not only because goedkoop) .
I give only comments if someone withhout knowledge like Mr Sascha try to fuck Indonesia , telling about 1000s dead chinese .
I have also read a report from an NZ or Aussie University about the riots of 1998.
Even an article abt riots in Solo (1998) is also not true .



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sascha
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Thx for the numbers jeroen. And sidia u still dont get the main point of what i said. And ur math is far to simple(u assume everyone in java barat is sundanese and exlude all the javanese that were sent to colonialize papua, kalimantan sumatra etc.)
And if we use Jeroen aka the official indonesian statistic from 2000 javanese made up approx. 43% of the population then. People living on Java even over 60%.
That did not change a lot in the last 5 years.
And londoh even back in 1990 corruption was high, and back then suharto made all the debts that indonesia has to pay now. most of the state budget is spend to pay dept interests. And indonesia was only doing well because of the asian tiger bubble which was unavoidable to burst.
Suharto was only one big lie.



sascha
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Hehe tell me bout the truth Sidia. Tell me what u learned about communists and 1965. About trade unions. About suharto.
Indonesia is not known to have the most critical press. Media was and is more of a political medium used to tell onsided truths.
Why are no press allowed in Aceh and back then in Timur??
Im sure u got all the information.
I dont try to fuck indonesia. I just dont like if people go over problems to easily and cant admit them Emoticon: Puh!
Ask me about my opinion about germany and i will be equally critical Emoticon: Wink




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