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AnisJ
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'Ahu kura ahia, mansia nia'

sahabat
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Anis,
saya sudah bosan mendengar yg itu itu saja.
what is the sense of these kind of topics ?
history !
Sahabat



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It's not really true, the Dutch colonial system was based on the support from local rulers. In alot of outposts of the colony the Dutch barely came. The local rulers could hold on their power if they agreed on accepting the Dutch as the global power. The Dutch had most of the time only 10.000-45.000 military in Indonesia, it was more a police force than a military force, especially in the 20th century so they nevere could have hold on to power without local support.

So local rulers and people remained in leading positions all over the country. Ofcourse there was dicrimination, but this was not based on race, but more on class. Interesting is that the European foot soldiers (fuseliers) where considered the lowest class, even lower than the local koelies(servants)

So apartheid is uncomparable. In apartheid you had places where only white people could come for instance (just purely based on race) in the former Dutch Indies this was never the case.



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dear all,

I think it's a long time ago and mere history. But in my opinion, (sorry bloodhound), Dutch colonial system also used apartheid system, even if only some part - because they differed the system into several classes based on race (and also occupation - that's why it's not pure apartheid, but there was some part of apartheid system).
Just my opinion. But it's just history, and the only thing useful of history is to learn from it.

Regards

WJ



londoh
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Hi Johny,

You don't have to look at history, look how now (2005) orang Papua are treated in Indonesia, and what about the Acehnese? Just to name a few of the many samples. Racism and discrimination are still abundant in Indonesia, they did not learn very much from the past. Especially the ruling class from Java.

regards



sidia
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Dear friends,
history is important , because we can learn from the past and avoid to make the same mistake.
It is a fact that the dutch (not only the gov.) are discriminating the indonesian and only based on race.(westeuropeaan, Vreemde oosterling, Inlanders)
SiDia have plenty juicy stories about hat time.
Nowadays indonesia has still social , political (separatist) and economical problems (Pri vs Non Pri) .
But it is not the same as the Dutch Col.Period.(based on race)

salam


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arie_h
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The Dutch colonial system based on race? Yep, that is part of the truth. Although I think it is more precise to state that the system was based on profit. And to make as much profit as possible, the Dutch suppressed native people and created a system that kept native people suppressed and (in fact) made them depend on corrupt local leaders, that were pro-Dutch.
So racism was a consequence of colonialism, not an objective. And mind you that this not only took place in Indonesia but indeed in ALL countries/parts of the world that were colonized by European countries. South African apartheid is a complete different story...

Sidia, you think of separatism as a non-racist problem? Maybe it didn't start as such (in fact, it started when cultures that were totally different and de facto independent were artificially merged into one big new republic), but it indeed has become a problem that also has racist conotations.

At least, that's just all my humble opinion...



putri
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Hi there,
The separation in Indonesia was more on class structures, you can see it has been applied very deeply in Java, it has been a part of the culture. Dutch has applied this on ruling the whole archipelago, with success. Classified the inlanders into category of inlanders without any previliges status, ambtenaren, family member of the king/sultan's with special titles, and Chinese, Indians and Arabic - into business families, and Dutch families. But they do not really separate white and brown. The family member of the king or inlander with special function(ambtenaren) could go to school, along with white children. Our root of culture based on this class separation, on hinduism which has formed an important base of Javanese culture. So I do not think it is really an apartheid, since there were some white man getting married officially with local women. But at that time when the world was really cruel, all those countries in the west trying to find new world, new resources, and find out that they can occupy or ruling new territories with their ships, it was very normal to get cheap labour from this new territories. Later on begin the movement of humanism, which has been liberated new thoughts against this cruel practices.

I do not think that this ethnical problems right now based on racism, it is more about arrogancy of Javanese, The high class of Javanese still in thought of the end period of glorious time during Dutch colony where we were the central of civilization in Archipelago. Culture and education was growing so fast, that Indonesian artists are starting their exposition journey to Europe, and young people starting going to Europe for universities/higher education. Everything has been organized from Java. All business acitivities, shipping goods to Europe, important harbours for tradings and transits, tranportations, and cities and the infrastructures.


So back to topic, I think dutch colony was a bit unique, it was not really apartheid, but it is more creating society based on traditional core(class/social status) added their existency and other trading partners and concentrating on their profit, as a PT VOC...cerdik sekali. And the javanese, keeps on going classifying the society...



londoh
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Hi Putri & Arie,

Thanks for your well balanced opinions, they make sense, but there is still one thing puzzling me. When people on Java are talking about the color of skin they like to say : "Hitam kotor, putih bersih" - black is dirty and white is clean. People with white skin are higly prized, when the ideal man or woman (for marriage) is described they always should have "kulit putih bersih" no one dreams about having (milik) someone who is "black" although there is also the saying "hitam manis".

BTW I think "caste" is still important on Java as well as all kind of meaningless titles (gelar)

Regards




sidia
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Dear Friends ,
1.Marriage : In the beginning marriage betweem a dutch/white man (christian) and a local woman(heiden) forbidden.
2.Education : some differencies: an inlander even with money is not free to choose his shool.And later only the happy few can go to the H.I.S.
3.What is yr comment ( an advertising ? )
a. "Forbidden for Chinese and Dogs " (UK-Hong Kong)
b."Nie vor Nie Blanke" (S.A. before Mandela )
c."Verboden voor Inlanders" ( Nederlands Indie - Tempo Doeloe).

A story : a father told his son answering some question about historylesson.
( Emoticon: Shiny

---- , our family have not problems with dutch discrimination.
But some times they are arrogance to the not whites , because they are white , what ever their social or economical background.
Somewhere in Java : only 2 (two) inlands childeren in an E.L.S (around twenties).
Somewhere in a Kweekschoolclass : some inlands , gelijkgestelden, en dutchies.Even the Zwarte Hollanders (childeren from ex slaves/mercenaries from africa) act as a white man.
Black as an "arang" but act as a white man.

If I am wrong , pse correct me , we can learn from each others.

salam

( Emoticon: Shiny Enkele gelijkenissen berusten op toeval.


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sidia
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Mas Londoh :
what about combination Gelar from inheritance and something like S1/S2 or S3.

sidia b.u (banyak utang)


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putri
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Hi Mas Londoh yth,

Unfortunately it is true, from the ancient Javanese Kingdoms, they are really fond of "yellow/lighter skin" princesses from the..(I forgot the name, sorry, from the Chinese area..) So, mostly the Javanese, ratu/raden and all kind of, would not taking a "hitam manis" girl as doughter in law, how smart you are (take a look at me !! ha..ha..) That is why I said, it is really values that has been deeply absorbed in Javanese society, "kasta", or family background, appearance, attitude, showing the whole picture where somebody should be placed in the society, more than the intelligence and inner quality. And Dutchies has learned a lot from this situation and using this as an important tool to rule the archipelago.

Well, probably there is also racist I agree, but it is more dividing the society into some social ranges and status. And certainly quite different than SA apartheid, I think.



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dear all,

I think racialism (in my opinion, racialism happens when someone/a party treats people differently based on race) still happen in Indonesia. Sadly, we still see and laugh at other race: "Batak", "Cina", "Jawa", etc (with unpleasant tones) still can be heard daily. But I think it happened too at the time of colonializm. I don't want to comment about which one is more severe, but racialism should be banned. And it's the duty of law and government to make sure it is under control (and of course our participation).
Dear Putri, in my opinion apartheid starts when a race feels superior and when they have a control to the government, they use the power and make a system that benefit them (like in SA) so I believe that apartheid system stems from racialism. So they did happen in the time of colonialism.
Dear Londoh, I don't like to see what happened in Papua, or Aceh, either. And I do wish that it will stop for good.
I see the funny remarks about 'putih' and 'hitam' and I do wonder too, why in the culture in the world (not only Indonesia) the people think that white is better.
e.g: 'white' lies, 'black' mail, 'black' sheep, 'white' knight....hehehe. Is it probably because people like the light (daylight) than the dark (dark night)? Emoticon: Devil

WJ




AnisJ
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Salam s.mua yth.,

I wonder how big the not-INDOnesian minorities are in nowadays situation ???
Like Arabs, Chinese, Indians, Europeans, Americans ???
Are there several millions or thousands ???

Greets ... Anis.


'Ahu kura ahia, mansia nia'

sidia
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Who cares ?


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sidia
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Hi Putri ,

abt : Ethnical problems caused by javanese arrogancy.
I think we cannot always blaming the javanese.
It is based on conflict of interest between individual/groups and ethnicgroups.

abt: the arrogancy - Socialclass.
Arrogancy without power (economic./social/politics) is nothing even the aristocrats in the past are nothing without that extras.
Common people called them the "Payung Butut" (sundanese) .
Payung is referend to the Songsong , Butut to the condition of the Payung.
A rich man only because his money are called as "Orang Pasar".

abt : Dutch.Col Syst : is Also based on racism.
The first goal of de VOC is Trade .
The means are Imperialism,Colonoialism and later Racism.

abt : Social Mobility: Nowadays is good that everyane can improoved their lives with education and hard working.
Everyone have the same right and opurtunity.
In the western country , everyone is equal , but --------- ?
In our beloved Holland : iedereen is gelijk , alleen de ene heeft meer gelijk dan de anderen.

salam



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AnisJ
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On 28-06-2005 01:10 londoh wrote:
Hi Putri & Arie,

Thanks for your well balanced opinions, they make sense, but there is still one thing puzzling me. When people on Java are talking about the color of skin they like to say : "Hitam kotor, putih bersih" - black is dirty and white is clean. People with white skin are higly prized, when the ideal man or woman (for marriage) is described they always should have "kulit putih bersih" no one dreams about having (milik) someone who is "black" although there is also the saying "hitam manis".

BTW I think "caste" is still important on Java as well as all kind of meaningless titles (gelar)

Regards

Silahkan B. Lon I think the Luxe-soap had done his work through the ages, despite the times of independence and so on .... Emoticon: Sadley
"This is the outcome of many ages of colonialism ......" Emoticon: Cry Emoticon: Devil ----> Emoticon: Angry Emoticon: Angry

Amatoo ... sampai ketemu lagi ...... Anis.



'Ahu kura ahia, mansia nia'

Hitami
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The question about apartheid is the same as to asked about Indonesia if they are corrupt !!!



Merdeka
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= edit: this subforum is in English only =



sidia
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Hitami :
can you describe what corruption is .
Because if I told the Dutch many years ago ( > 15 yrs) that I saw corruption in Holland , then they said to me : Kennen we niet .
Of course it happened before the Bouwfraude , HBO fraude , etc2 .
And what about national sport with the "belastingaangifte" , "met or zonder BTW ".


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Hitami
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Sidia,
Corruption is everywhere. But Indonesia on this moment is one of the champion !!!



sidia
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Iya : wie zonder zonde is werpe de eerste steen


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