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The reason for all of this lies in the Indonesian Independence in 1949.

First of all there was wwII with the japanese occupation of the Dutch east-Indies. After the Japanese where defeated the English temporary took over the control of the Dutch east-Indies. However they didn't release the Dutch minded Ambonese and where reluctant to grant Dutch forces access to Java to restore the Dutch Government. Because of this Soekarno's extremist Independence movement gained strength.

At the end of 1945 the Dutch showed good will and signed an independance treaty for a federation of independant states with Soekarnos movement. Soekarno then broke the treaty brutally and choose to form a federal state of indonesia and worse, Dutch people and people that had worked with the Dutch where discriminated and violently treated by the new rulers and pushed back into small enclaves on Java.

Ofcourse the Dutch could not live with this and started the military "police actions" to restore Dutch rule and remove Soekarno from office. Military the police actions where very succesfull and in 1949 the Dutch rule was restored and Soekarno was in prison. The road was paved for an Indonesian Independence in a better way.... Until the US andd the UN brutally interfered. The US threatend to stop post WWII Marchall help ,because they didn;t like the Dutch plans for Indonesia (for their own interest) The UN followed like a bunch of slaves and... financially almost bankrupt, Holland was with the back against the wall and reluctantly decided to comply...

In 1962 again the Americans forced us to leave Dutch New guinea. (Irian Jaya) The Dutch wanted to grant them independence, but the US (Kennedy) wanted the Dutch to leave earlyer because a referendum could be held then..., but Indonesia brutally annexed it (after a fake referendum orchested by Soekarno) I think the Dutch government listened too much to the US in this case and should have hold on and when necessary defended militairy New Guinea until it could have been reunited with Papoea new guinea.

All current conflicts have the origine in these periods. Atjeh, Ambon, Irian Jaya... if the US hadn't interefered with our business and the Dutch model of independance without Soekarno would have been the case Indonesia would have been much better off now!



sidia
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speechless,
(met de mond vol tanden staan , jadi kesima)
in a word : adoeh sech


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Ofcourse I'm not denying the violence and agression of the Dutch in some regions (especially Atjeh) and surpresession of the farmers at end of the 19th century. I'm only saying that the independence of Indonesia ,which they very much deserved, would have.been a much better and peaceful process if the UN had minded their own business.

Especially in 1949. Now the outer regions got surpressed by Jakarta, it's not for nothing that the ambonese people highjacked trains in Holland, all because they feel the Dutch should have done more for an independant Malakka. Only they should should have pointed their anger towards the US and UN, who are really to blame for it.



sidia
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still speechles
about the highjacking have heard another version.
because they feel been betrayed by the dutch gov.
is is true ? , can some one tell me ?

tks


Bisa dicek mas . http://omsid.multiply.com/

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On 18-06-2005 08:58 sidia wrote:
still speechles
about the highjacking have heard another version.
because they feel been betrayed by the dutch gov.
is is true ? , can some one tell me ?

tks


Yes, you are right, this was the second reason for the violence.

The Dutch promised more or less an independant Malakka, these plans where sabotaged by the UN... When independence was declared in 1950 Indonesia attacked and the Dutch didnt/couldn't do anything.

The Indonesian/ambonese KNIL soldiers where all fired from the army and didn't get anything for it, while Dutch soldiers could continue their carreer in the Dutch army. When they all came to Holland in the 1950's (the Dutch initially just wanted to leave them in hostile Java and a court order was neede for this) they didn't get the respect they deserved for all the sacrifices they made for the Dutch and where treated poorly and the worst thing for them was that they got fired from the Dutch army. Really a disgrace! In protest they wore uniforms on the streets..

This utter lack of respect ofcourse triggered resitance and for the Ambonese people their goal of an independant state became much more important, because they felt they had no home anymore.

Fled from and not welcome anymore in indonesia and poorly treated in a cold and unknown country where they once gave their lives for. It's a really sad story.. Emoticon: Fortunately the Indonesian/ambonese people integrated quite well and with second/third generations there are no problems at all.. still sometimes the ambonese government in exile (which is in the Hague) raises the voice... (more and more in vain, also because the Indosian government does not want to talk about anything and tries to change the population of the malakka's with their "transmigrasie" program..

I think the Dutch still owe the Ambonese people a lot and it is sad the RMS has never gotten the support it deserved. Then again it all started to go wrong in 1949...



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dear bloodhound from hell,

If we see the history, it's sad. I still say that invasion or imperialism is not acceptable anywhere. But I think it is over now. The problem in Indonesia mainly come to the disintegration, so many groups with different agenda, want to bring Indonesia to the directions they want. Because I don't think we will not have any problem if the Dutch still occupies Indonesia.


WJ



nona
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can we change the subject ?



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On 22-06-2005 12:32 johny251976 wrote:
dear bloodhound from hell,

If we see the history, its sad. I still say that invasion or imperialism is not acceptable anywhere. But I think it is over now. The problem in Indonesia mainly come to the disintegration, so many groups with different agenda, want to bring Indonesia to the directions they want. Because I dont think we will not have any problem if the Dutch still occupies Indonesia.


WJ

you dont understand what I mean. What I mean is that if the de-colonisation went in a different manner (like the Dutch wanted) then Indonesia would not have existed like this. We would have seperate states (like Java and the small isles east, Sumatra, Borneo, Molukken, Celebes and Papua. All with ther own government.

Further Indonesia was just a part of Holland, like Texas is a part of the US, so there was nothing wrong with that. In the US they also fought bloody wars between the north and the south. It was just normal in that day and age. In the 20th century the local people where allowed to go to university and got more rights. Indonesia was not so bad for the people under colonial rule. There was alot more progress at that time then after the independence.




sidik
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Bloodhound,

I think you should say that you made a mistake by mentioning Malakka instead of Maluku. Besides I think that what happened with the train and school was not right. Like you wrote, it was the UN/US who prevented the RMS so why not them as a target?


tunawisma, tunakarya, tunamasalah

sidia
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bldhnd

is it tickling or silly talk ?


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sahabat
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Dear Readers,
Indonesia is without problems Emoticon: Nice
But accept your concerns Emoticon: Nice
Sahabat



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dear B-H,

If the de-colonialization did happen, I doubt that Indonesia did exsist.
If, based on your story, the Dutch Government didnt appreciate KNIL who helped them fighting people who wanted independence, then I didn't think the Dutch Government would have appreciated those who wanted Indonesia to exsist by granting them independence.
But once again, it's a history and no need to think about 'what ifs' and 'may bes' for things that has already happened, unless we invented the time machine.
Indonesia does have problems now, but which country doesnt? And the stem of the problems is in the system and the components (including us). And to solve the problems, we need the willingness of all parties in the systems, with open talking and open listening (not by force or intimidation).
That's my opinion.

WJ






sidik
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Dear John,

Well said, but I think the aim of the system itself is good, but the components are (still?) not. As long as they don't have the discipline to work towards that system, Indonesia will stay uncontrolled.


tunawisma, tunakarya, tunamasalah

Albert
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When I compaire the stories of my parents when they where stil living there, Indonesia was a lot diffierent then it was now. Maybe because of all the foreigners, the listen to them.

But now they are indipentded, I found it a weak excuse to blame the Colonial list or the Japanese for it all.
For me it is a fact that first of all, the Indonesian do not really wish to learn. Take a look at the relation with the Chinese in Indonesia. They only complain about the Chinese, but trying to be as good as they are No.
Sudah, tomorrow, tomorrow you are always a day away. So why should I care.
Only complaining about the Dutch/English, etc.

When the Dutch left, they destroyed nearly everything what the Dutch left behind. It does not matter if the Dutch shared it yes or no with the Indonesian people.

Good example;
"De War of the Worlds" Orson Welles.
The Earth is occupied by Aliens 1938 I think.
After we liberated our self from them, what do we do? Destroy all their advanced technology or do we study it and try to rebuild it and use it for our self.

Best example are the Japanese, first the copy it, then they improve the copy compared to the original and now? Now they invent all by themselves and they now control the electronic market world wide.

Also there have always been dictators in Indonesia, just like in communism. The Government controls everything and hardly give anything to the people.

Look at the Dutch and water, did we let the water control our daily live. Or do we try to push the water away and we take its place?

It is either in the character of the people of that country or it is not. If it is not there, progress will be very very slowly.

You can be offended by this, or ask yourself is there a truth in it or not?

Even today many would again vote for Mega although she did not do a d*mn for the country. Even in her last days as a president she maneged to steal at least 2,5 million Usd from her country. Only to have an extra large bloody expensive Villa. Emoticon: Angry Emoticon: Angry
How stupid or ignorend/naief can you be! Emoticon: Yawn


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AnisJ
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Albčrt mon ami,

When I have sleeping problems I will read your stories ....
Is the magic word imagination avaliable .....
There is a difference between Tempo Dulu and Jaman Bahru .....
No matter how many INDOnesians starve, the country will get his warships; so the Dutch warshipyard industry will survive through economic difficult times despite Europe, with or without the VVD ....
As far as Chinese, have you ever heard about congsi I think it is even a Chinese word ....

Anis.

Anyway Emoticon: Yeah right! Emoticon: Yeah right! Emoticon: Yeah right! selamat tidur !!!


'Ahu kura ahia, mansia nia'

Albert
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Anis,

Before give any comment first learn how to read and understand it.
Ok?
I do not talk about doeloe or whatever temple.

Emoticon: Yawn


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dear All,

There were so many mistakes done - but all is done is done. I think mostly our problem is to accept that we do have problems and that we are the creators of the problems. Always looking for something or someone else to blame - it's human, but it will not solve the problems.

WJ






indoboy7
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In 1948/49, Holland was "persuaded" (under heavy pressure from the USA government) to grant independence to Indonesia IMMEDIATELY, or there would be no money from the Marshall plan to help rebuild a country ruined by the german occupation..Today, Indonesia has so many problems because all of its "first" leaders -led by Sukarno- had learned how to wield power, by manipulating the populace.I know this is heresy to the many Indonesian people who STILL make pilgrimages to Blitar in his honor. The fact of the matter is that Indonesia has had -from its inception- Institutionalized corruption.EXCEPT now it is no longer run by the BELANDAS , but by INDONESIANS. Now, with President "Bambang" they can see that he treads VERY SOFTLY against the present power structure/. He cannot very well take tough action against the generals who hold all the guns/power, now, can he, - after all: He ONCE was one of those generals. Things cannot begin to change UNTIL the Indonesian population -EN MASSE- take a hard look, and study their history from 1949 until 2008, they will see that the Indonesian leadership has committed a far more cruel crime than the BELANDAS EVER DID. because they committed these cruelties against THEIR OWN PEOPLE.....Nothing will change until serious jailtime is given to the most egregious criminals who are still in the leadership..



sidia
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On 02-09-2008 08:23 indoboy7 wrote:
they will see that the Indonesian leadership has committed a far more cruel crime than the BELANDAS EVER DID. because they committed these cruelties against THEIR OWN PEOPLE.......

Such as ?

Dont forget to mentioned :

Cultuur stelsel 1830-1870
Aceh War
Lombok war
Bali War
Westerling etc etc
Agression War I , Agression War II (Politionele Acties)


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Dutchess
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On 17-06-2005 23:43 bloodhoundfromhell wrote:
The reason for all of this lies in the Indonesian Independence in 1949.

All current conflicts have the origine in these periods. Atjeh, Ambon, Irian Jaya... if the US hadn't interefered with our business and the Dutch model of independance without Soekarno would have been the case Indonesia would have been much better off now!

Well hard to believe and even if Indonesia would still be colonized by the Dutch, I bet we have to face rudeless rebellion nowadays. I think every country has a natural wish to be independent and don't want to be dependent of a ruler or whatever.

What astonishes me is that such a country as Indonesia is not capable to take profit or advantage of her natural richness. Look at their neighbours China, India, Singapore. I blame that to a lousy and corrupt government and underneath their religion, the latter keeping folks dump. Instead of keeping pace with e.g. the Mid East, where a modern way of islamization is implemented.

Emoticon: I love it


wablief?

AnisJ
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  • I do not think that INDOnesia is independent, because the INDOnesian governments, even nowadays in fact are 'puppets on a string' because of their corruptif attitude(-s) ......


  • 'Ahu kura ahia, mansia nia'


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