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I agree with Ardianto that there shouldn't be any limitation to WHAT people discuss, as long what is written is based on facts and if someone assets something "unpleasant on religion", he/she better to back it up with evidences.

Yogja bali, I am in Indonesia. And whether you like it or not, you see that since the late 1990s till now, the religious radicalism start to grow and everyone was silent, until suddenly there are bombs everywhere, terror in the form of 'sainty' people.

I think this is one phase need to be passed by Indonesia: the collide between modernity and traditional/religious values.

Avoiding the subject just because it is only a LATENT problem will never solve the problem. By talking, we can reach people and humanity hopefully can win over rigidity in Indonesia. Of course that is if you really love Indonesia and want the best future of Indonesia.

That's my two cents.

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Find out the real face of Islam, read www. faithfreedom.org

reetje
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Dear Jason,

I am very happy for you that you met the girl of your dreams. I hope everything will turn out right, as the disicions you have to make are not small!

As a cristian I would like to ask you a few questions: are you sure you want to change your religion into that of the Islam? What do you know of Islam and what do you know about Christianity?

My friend, you think to easy about these things? Not all Gods are the same! Your decisions have an effect on your being, here and in the hereafter. There is much to explain but I havent got the time.

I pray to God that you inform yourself better and let not your hart be your advisor, but your good judgement.

Maybe this site can help you find answers :
http://www.sermonaudio.com/main.asp

Melankah dengan hati-hati!!!
With kind regards,

Reetje





reetje
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On 09-12-2006 09:16 Yogya-Bali wrote:
Please, can we get rid of religion on this forum? Always this bullshit about religions. Put that on a religious forum. Its very disturbing cause I notice already for a long time that there are quite a lot frustrated about religion on this forum. Although religion nowadays do have a relation with Indonesia and Indahnesia; theres some overkill.
Clean the mess moderator.


Dear friend,

I understand the subject disturbes you. You could try switching over to another subject and let these people share there thoughts. And keep your mind and feeling clean of negative emotions like these.

I think the purpose of this subject on this forum is to share and grow in knowlegde and understanding for those who are interested.
To talk about religion might be helpfull for those who have to make important decisions about there religion in relationship with others and life.

That you consider things "bullshit' doesn't mean that they are.
Some people do have other believes in life than you have and you must respect that. Otherwise we as people can not life together.

God bless you.

Reetje







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Jason,
Religion is a man-made tool to manipulate people. Be kind, giving and respectful. LOVE conquers everything. Emoticon: Party!



hobo1
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"I guess you already found out that you're not allowed to live in Indonesia once you're married with an Indonesian woman. This also applies to you're childern."

That is old news, and it is WRONG news as well. You can live in Indonesia under serveral different types of visas. Yes, you must pay the price, but that's true with all of life. Your children will have joint citizenship until age 18 when they can choose which country they want to live in,

I married an Indonesia woman and live in Indonesia...and I have never been happier in my life. The marriage traditions are important, so follow what the family customs are...and you will be respected in the community.


Hideaway Bungalow in Kuta Lombok - check my homepage

madrotter
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yo yogja bali whatever man, respect ain't no big word to me, you give it and you get it, and after the circumcission that's what i got from lots of indonesians, respect, and that's also what i got back in holland, mainly from the (dutch) women though. to me the whole circumsission thing wasn't a big deal, and what does the woman give back? weird question man, but ok, i guess what you get back is a lotta love, religion didn't have anything to do with it as far as i was and am concerned, showing (again) some respect to my wife's religious parents was. besides, those few centimeters they cut away....wasn't a big thing either, i could surely miss 'em...chill man, chill...



saidja
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Well, if you're really madly in love, what do ya care about a little difference...
although religion can be quite important for some people, for most people it is a guidance, and not the goal.... I think two people can be happy together no matter what their defferences are. As long as you respect the other's way of thinking , religion or philosophy , love counts more indeed. So I agree with lots of forum peoples. Dont stress about being muslim or non-muslim, you are in love right ? Ha ha. Don't ya forget it !

See ya, Saidja



Yogya-Bali
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On 14-12-2006 07:34 jadedjade wrote:
, but hey, as most contributors have said, follow your heart.


Well, that's just the biggest problem here with the bule's: that they only follow their heart (and sometimes their dick) and not some logic reason, reality and common sense. Not looking to what things which will cause problems in the (mostly nearby) future. So goddamned naive.
The mess comes later when children are born. But then it's mostly too late and some new victims are born out of a relation not based on (Asian) reality.




Yogya-Bali
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On 18-12-2006 11:40 madrotter wrote:
yo yogja bali whatever man, respect aint no big word to me, you give it and you get it, and after the circumcission thats what i got from lots of indonesians, respect,


Dear Madrotter, for you respect is not a big thing. But it surely is for Indonesians (and other Asians). And I think you mix up the so-called respect you (think you) got from the Indonesians with tolerance and friendlyness. If you think that you got respect for what you did, then you propably have to learn a little more about Asian culture and values.




Yogya-Bali
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On 15-12-2006 16:50 reetje wrote:

...
.
To talk about religion might be helpfull for those who have to make important decisions about there religion in relationship with others and life.

That you consider things "bullshit doesnt mean that they are.
Some people do have other believes in life than you have and you must respect that. Otherwise we as people can not life together.


I have to respect the believes of others while almost nobody on this forum respects or even acceptes me as an atheist? No way.

Besides I was talking about overkill. And in my opinion there's a lot of overkill on the religious subject which - again in my opinion - rather belongs on a forum about religion.




saidja
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Whats wrong with following your haret (or your dick) ,...
Even if you are an atheist, wich is a believe too in my eyes, you can do good or even great things, and follow your haert and love somebody. According to taoist law, the love-thing is a trinity too, and based on sex, energetic or social interaction and understanding....in that order....
I respect the feelings of Jason but I can't even guess how important differences in religion are for them.... I just repeat that it is really not that important, if ya try to do the best thing always, what harm can be done,....
just love should be enough. Good luck and merry christmas !



Yogya-Bali
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On 22-12-2006 22:43 saidja wrote:
Whats wrong with following your haret (or your dick) ,...
...
I respect the feelings of Jason but I cant even guess how important differences in religion are for them.... I just repeat that it is really not that important, if ya try to do the best thing always, what harm can be done,....
just love should be enough. Good luck and merry christmas !


Good luck and merry christmas also. But still I think that Jason is naive and don't understand that much about the situation in RI where differences in religion are bloody damned important for the local people. So if you are committed to change your religion, then you won't get real respect but just a fake one cause it takes a lot to do an Indonesian change his religion. It's a question of who is the most powerful in the relation (= the most rich one), he/she decides who will change his religion; not the weaker part.
But okay, I'm repeating again. This is an endless discussion with 2 different points of view about the "worldly" meaning of love and the pragmatic Indonesian (probably in all 3th World countries) meaning of love.




madrotter
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+yogja you're painting such a black and white picture of things in indo and you're leaving out all the different shades of grey!!! so what if jason is naive (and i'm not saying that he is) let him find out for him self! 1000nds and 1000nds of mixed couples and they all have a different story, as far as the respect goes, i wasn't talking about the whole religion thing, i'm talking about cutting up your dick at a later age and all the horrors that come with it, you didn't see me limping around back then and you also didn't see the respect i got for that. anyways, this is not really something worth discussing really i think, you got your point of view i got mine, so much more interresting things to discuss about indonesia, sidoarjo, illegal logging and it's effects, police brutality (i was just in another razia on jalan braga the bastards), corruption, the rise of islamo-fascism, the burning of churches, aa gym and his 2nd spouse, the tsunami and all that came with it, immigration and the how's and if's, indonesian history, literature, music, the fact that holland has become kind of a police-state, the sensoring of films and tv programmes, the implementation of sharia in 40 districts now, cafe's and restaurants, travel tips, the destruction of the ultimus book shop by police and right wing youth groups in bandung (where some friends of mine were really badly beaten up), the whole idiotic porno-law thing andsoforth.....



Yogya-Bali
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Well, what you're talking about in Bandung is very interesting for me cause I monthly visit Bandung but not yet familiar with the situation there.

Apart from this, my reaction on Jadejade was this one: "The mess comes later when children are born. But then it's mostly too late and some new victims are born out of a relation not based on (Asian) reality."
That's why this topic is important. And unfortunately it is quite black-and-white. Not because of my description but just because reality is that black-and-white. Naive persons are causing a lot of troubles...... for themselves, but also for their spouse and their children. One thing the Dutch governemental representatives in Indonesia are getting fed up because they normally have to clean up the mess and these naive Dutchies are giving the Netherlands a bad name in Indonesia.
If reality wasn't so often tragic (mainly tragic for their children and sometimes also their wives) I wouldnt care a dime about these kind of people. And if they would clean up the mess they are causing, then I also wouldn't react on this topic. But often somebody else have to clean their mess.




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Well, Jogja bali, I agree.
Asian (Indonesian culture) are a bit complex and I hate to say but the culture of "being nice in front of someone and talking bad behind his/her back" is very strong here.

To others,
I also have no idea why a lot of westerners are not aware of this. Talking about honesty, asians must learn from Africans.
Of course, there are a lot of people who are honest and true in Indonesia, but don't just let your consideration be driven by your d***.

To jason,
It's been a long time you didn't come to share your news, so I assume you have gotten married and hopefully happily.



Find out the real face of Islam, read www. faithfreedom.org

Yogya-Bali
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On 01-01-2007 05:02 searching wrote:
Well, Jogja bali, I agree.
Asian (Indonesian culture) are a bit complex and I hate to say but the culture of "being nice in front of someone and talking bad behind his/her back" is very strong here.

To others,
I also have no idea why a lot of westerners are not aware of this. Talking about honesty, asians must learn from Africans.
Of course, there are a lot of people who are honest and true in Indonesia, but dont just let your consideration be driven by your d***.


Well, it's actually not a question whether Asians have to learn from others, but more a point that we westerners (and other foreigners) have to accept that Asians do have an other concept of true/truth then we do. It's not about good or bad, right or wrong, but about difference in the value which is given to the concept TRUTH. You always have to be aware of these differences in dealing with Asians. And also with the differences in the meaning of the concept LOVE.
It makes it so more easy for westerners if they learn to accept the difference in value of these concepts above between 2 different cultures. It's also some kind of selfprotection for the foreigner otherwise he/she will become mad.



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its lovely to see many australian married with indonesia i support you Emoticon: Smile



madrotter
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yogya-bali come check out the nordseabar in jalan braga! nice nights are the monday, friday and saturdaynights!
as far as indonesian laws and marriage go, i agree, it's still a bloody mess here, specially when kids come into the picture...




miss match
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Dear Jason,

When I read your posting, I was “Wow.. that’s what my boyfriend would worry about”. Well, my boyfriend is in the exact position you’re facing right now I am Muslim Indonesian, he’s Christian and an Australian. About the religion part, he’s slowly learning and trying to understand the essence of Islam and about the circumcision, he sees it from a medical point of view as some doctor said that it would be healthier for men to have it..uhm… “cut”.

Jason, every people who posted here surely has their own opinions and maybe some could bring doubts on what you’ve already planned on. What you need to do right now, is ask yourself what do you really want for now and in the future? Remember, every single thing that you do, like; change religion, circumcise, compromising differences, etc etc .. When you do it truthfully and sincerely from your heart everything will goes along smoothly. So ask yourself..

Good luck .. Keep us in touch if you want .. hehe..
Emoticon: Wink



Yogya-Bali
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On 07-01-2007 17:03 miss match wrote:
Well, my boyfriend is in the exact position you’re facing right now I am Muslim Indonesian, he’s Christian and an Australian. About the religion part, he’s slowly learning and trying to understand the essence of Islam and about the circumcision, he sees it from a medical point of view as some doctor said that it would be healthier for men to have it..uhm… “cut”.


Well my dear miss watch, why don't you change religion????
Or let your boyfriend the way you met him and the way he is????
Why does he have to change a part of him (spiritual and physical) while you accepted him the way he is when you met him??
Are we talking about love? Love = accepting each other the way you are.
And that doesn't mean changing your love one.





kiwimave
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That's the basic problem in Islam...they dont tolerate that other people are trying to live in a different way.

If your boy get's circumcised I think he's a loser. He should stand for his principles. No unnecessary medical interventions just because some guy in some desert 1500 years ago wrote that down in a book.


Gracias. Sama sama

heliumhead
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Hi Jason, still wearing your pink sunglasses, flowers everywhere? Good for you! It would be interesting to see where you and the girl are in lets say five years time, could you post another message than so we all can hear if you are still madly in love. In the meantime I wish you and your girl all the best, you look sincere but I don't think you are very down to earth if you don't mind my words. Emoticon: Stupid



Sugi5
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We westerners (and other foreigners) have to accept that Asians do have an other concept of true/truth then we do. It's not about good or bad, right or wrong, but about difference in the value which is given to the concept TRUTH. You always have to be aware of these differences in dealing with Asians. And also with the differences in the meaning of the concept LOVE.


Yogya-Bali, you make what sounds like a very important point here. I would be very interested to hear how the concepts of truth and love differ between asia and the west in your opinion.



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thats the beauty of multi culture i guess



Dutchess
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Hello Jason,

First of all, congrats with the excellent performance of your Cadel Evans, winner of the Tour de France. Don't tell me, you don't know this guy.... Emoticon: Confused

Referring to last message of a certain Agung Yes, now you are in love and your brain does not work so well...
well well, hopefully, you weren't too much in shock reading this.. Emoticon: Wink
but at the end I think his idea isn't that bad', I even share his thoughts.

So, for your own good, don't rush up things which might affect the rest of your whole life..

Good luck!



wablief?


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