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pbywater
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On 02-08-2005 12:23 sidik wrote:
I pity you all, you "religious" people. What is mostly the hatred in the world based on? Right, religions!
So why dont we give up religion, so there will be no more arguments, discussions, killings and wars based on that selfdenial?


that may be the case, but without religion the world would be total mayhem....

i am a christian, i may not be the perfect christian, but i still know my relgion.

Religion does not cause wars, people cause wars, if everyone just respected each other and their religions there would be no war/terrorism/any fo that crap.

i have friend who are budhist, hindu, muslim, christian, jewish we all get along fine...
ive been to temples, churches, mosques and all the places where people go to pray/have cerimonies etc etc, if im there, i respect their way, its interesting to know how other religions are, why cant people just learn to respect each other and get on with their lives? =/





dangdude03
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On 02-08-2005 12:23 sidik wrote:
I pity you all, you "religious" people. What is mostly the hatred in the world based on? Right, religions!
So why dont we give up religion, so there will be no more arguments, discussions, killings and wars based on that selfdenial?

I agree with Sidik: the world would be much better without religions. All religions by the way are very old fashion. They were all made by mankind back in time when we used to think the earth was flat and in the centre of the universe. But we should remember the rules we have made so far.



sidik
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On 03-08-2005 10:31 pbywater wrote:

...


that may be the case, but without religion the world would be total mayhem....

i am a christian, i may not be the perfect christian, but i still know my relgion.

Religion does not cause wars, people cause wars, if everyone just respected each other and their religions there would be no war/terrorism/any fo that crap.

i have friend who are budhist, hindu, muslim, christian, jewish we all get along fine...
ive been to temples, churches, mosques and all the places where people go to pray/have cerimonies etc etc, if im there, i respect their way, its interesting to know how other religions are, why cant people just learn to respect each other and get on with their lives? =/



pbywater,

a total mayhem? says who? because you need something to blame for (" it's God's will) because you lack self-confidence ("oh, God help me please" Emoticon: Wink and you don't believe that thanks to your own effort you succeeded in something ("thanks to God" Emoticon: Wink

you're right, religion does not cause war, people do. but claiming that their religion is the "best" they conquer other countries, commit suicide-bombings, burn villages etc, etc.

I agree with your last sentence. Hence why do some need to change his/her belief to get married? Because religions are not tolerant. Without their religions they could have get married without any problem.


Don't missunderstand me, I respect what you and others have chosen for, but sometimes .............


tunawisma, tunakarya, tunamasalah

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Dear Jan and Sidik,

I have to say that I agree with pbywater - the part that there are good things in religion that can be used to shape ourselves. The war between religions happen because the intention to force one belief into another. Just like both of you, I dislike too fanatical people, especially those who in turn are only other hypocrites. And I am never able to figure out, why people can kill other people based on any religion doctrine - especially helpless people.

Regards

WJ



dangdude03
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On 03-08-2005 11:33 johny251976 wrote:
there are good things in religion that can be used to shape ourselves.
WJ

Dear Windy,

It also would be wrong to forbid religion in the future. I had a religious education in the past and I get into other religions, so I agree with you there are good things in it which can be used to shape ourselves.
But I think the world grown up by now and does not need those fairytales anymore, which those Holy Writings actually are. I think/hope the world would be wise enough in the future and its people shall accept this integral, so we donít have to force one beliefs into another.

Regards,
Jan.




Agung
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Dear Johny,
Religion in itself is fine.

In my view the problem starts with religious leaders who seem to have found the telephone number or email address of God.

I'm not sure how they got it, but you can recognize them by the fact that they seem to know in detail what Shiva, God, Allah or Buddha seem want with this world.

This is surprising since the books and stories that every religion has do not give us clear instructions on how to live our life.

A further problem is when people not only want to apply the rules of God to themselves, but also (maybe even more) to other people.

In my view, if people do something that is totally wrong in the eye of God, it is THEIR problem, and I do not have to do anything about it.




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Jan and Agung,

I agree with both of you - we only can say that 'hey, you are against the public law' or 'hey, you can get yourself into harm if you do this or that' but they are only as an advice from a friend, not being drilled by holding a bamboo stick.

Regards

WJ

P.S. Jan, have a nice day!! Emoticon: Shiny



joy jade
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Dear Jason.....
if your faith ( i prefer to use this word i/o religion ) is just like your clothes.... it will be easy to change it .... just to be accepted by surrounding.
i am not saying she must follow your faith just because she is a woman. I am not agree about this. But to change faith only to be accepted by surrounding or a kind of is really pathetic.... And seemingly faith is cheap stuff.
Please think over and over about it Jason....
Good luck for you and your lover.





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Good luck to you too, Joy Jade.
May God bless you in every step of the way.

Warm Regards

WJ Emoticon: Worship



harto
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Hi Sidik,
I see you don't understand the indonesian rules,
there are muslims, hindus, christians and buddists.
people without agama, are suspicious and probably a communist. In indonesia is no place for suspicious people and communists are not wanted to enter the country. The first president of Indonesia had wonderfull ideas, free school acces for all, free acces to health services for all and live in dignity for elder people (pension-scheme). He was prisoned untill death for over 12 years because of communistic ideas (military court). So you see, the founder and the best man to rule and bring indonesia forward, was crippled by its own people, because he was an atheist.
N.B. for the indonesians, there are no athesist with a right to live inside indonesia
harto



sidik
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Harto,

So you see what religion can cause. Why can an atheist not live in Indonesia. Does he harm someone? Or are the people with religions takut kedok mereka akan terbuka? Takut rakyat akan menyadari bahwa agama hanya membuat manusia budak dari mereka yg memegang kekuasaan? Membuat manusia satu marionet? This is what happens when one thinks different Emoticon: Shut up!


tunawisma, tunakarya, tunamasalah

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Dear Sidik,

I myself have no problem if my friend chooses to be a non believer. It's the right for everyone to believe there's a heaven and hell or not. But I believe everyone should respect what each and everyone choose to believe - even to not believe. I myself choose to believe. Emoticon: Smile

Regards

WJ



pbywater
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just to bring this back on topic....

Jason - Love knows no boundaries, love can conquer anything...therefore i guess religion cannot control love...



londoh
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On 04-08-2005 11:35 pbywater wrote:
...therefore i guess religion cannot control love...


I have been taught that religion is love, might have had the wrong teacher Emoticon: Confused



Agung
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Hi Londoh,

Then you had one of the good teachers. (good for you)

Unfortunately, these days some "teachers" learn their students that the way to go is to blow themselve up will provide a one way ticket to heaven.

Maybe they should follow their own advice. ( in a quiet place ) Emoticon: Smile




emield
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Thank god, I was afraid "almost everybody" was mad!
Becoming a muslim, so u can marry a girl.
I agree with Agung, especially the last sentence.....(By the way if your girlfriend is willing to become a Christian you can be sure she loves you and not your Aus $)

If u want a girl that bad, find 1 that's catholic or christian, they're are not so demanding. DON'T become a muslim for the girl/family, because then, from my point of view, you're stupid! Emoticon: Frustrated


emield

Agung
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Dear emield,
a problem in Indonesia is that when you get married both man and wife must have the same religion. Maybe this will change in the future, but this is still the current situation.

So, if your girlfriend has a different religion than you, you have a problem.

So, I agree to become Muslim, because your girlfriend is Muslim is stupid.
But, for the girlfriend to become Christian to get married is also stupid.
And, throwing your relation because the government forces one of them to change their religion is also stupid.

So, what ever our friend in trouble will decide, he will always be stupid. Emoticon: Very funny

But, I repeat once more, currently the best option for them is to live in Australia. Hence becoming Christian makes most sense, then. I think being an Indonesian Muslim in Australia is currently not the most clever thing to do.

Regards,

A.A.




Agung
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Hi Jason,
check these links below:

General info if you still decide to live in Indonesia:
www

Info for Indonesians married with a foreigner:
www


This site is rather complete in giving all the answers you need.

Good Luck,

A.A.



harto
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Hi, all of you
you see government forces people to things they probably don't like.
nor a girl wants to convert, nor a boy, but they are in love.
as in indonesia there is no place for bule-husbands (let's be honest), and both are forced to leave the country after marriage (in islam the girl has to follow the boy), why keep both your religion and as you both have to leave the country, marry abroad, and live in peace (with both parties respect their religion). If the girl really loves the boy, that's a wonderfull offer - keeping her muslim-religion ! and not forced to convert to christanity - and the boy should not let him forced to convert to islam. that's what we call christian-tolerance.
with this we can show many couples the real way in future.
harto



sean_uk
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Hi Jason
Good luck With The Wedding
A Few Tips
1) Get Permission From Your Embassy In Jakarta before you get married.
Saves A Whole Lot A Trouble in the long run with visa's if you want to go home with your wife.My Wife's visa to move to the uk took 2 days others i know and have seen on here can take months.

2) Check with your embassy about becoming muslim for the same reason above . the uk embassy can be real slow giving muslims visa's

3) Let Your Girlfriends family organise the wedding, local adat can be really complicated and expensive for us bule's.

4) Have fun and enjoy the experience

regards
sean



harto
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Hi Sean,
two days is nothing ! In Holland up to two months waiting, even after marriage ! But if the man (mostly men marry indonesian girls and not the other way) can garantee for the girl for all the costs and have enough place to live for both of them, a 3-months-visum which can be extended every time untill the marriage is absolutely no problem in the E.U. and Switzerland.
The girl should bring all translated and legalized (from the embassy of the country in which they want to marry) documents, also inclusive police-statement of good behaviour, should be over 18 years old and than the marriage can take place in any not-muslim country. This because in any muslim-country a woman keep the rights of a small girl, so even when she is over 30 years old, she needs a written permission in which her parents give her free for marriage.
Muslim-man however, nowadays have a problem to get a western visum, but women almost never !
Note, in all cases a girl should always take a passport in advance, because afterwards there could always be dark powers, who don't really agree a marriage with a bule abroad especially mixed marriages and can block a passport.
It is in most countries (all the western, modern asian and almost all african) easy and allowed to marry without asking your religion. In not-fundamental countries religion is separated and absolutely private matter.
The bride-gift is mostly partly used to finance the wedding, so after all it is you who pay for the wedding.
harto



emield
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Hi Agung, yes you're right, I don't think it's smart, to become a moslim and live in Australia. (I still remember Bali, and I think people in Australia also didn't forget) I myself will NEVER become moslim, because it's not my "favorite" religion and my parents would die on the spot.

And I agree, let everybody keep his/her religion. This problem sounds like "apartheid" , but then all in the name of Allah! Emoticon: Worship




emield

Agung
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Hi All-of-you,
a few remarks from you that need discussion (in my view)

mostly men marry indonesian girls and not the other way around

This seems to be true, but I wonder why. Any ideas that make sense?

The bride-gift is mostly partly used to finance the wedding, so after all it is you who pay for the wedding.

Is this general practice? I'm since a long time married with a Balinese woman, but as a matter of fact, she organized all of it and paid all of the marriage cost. I do not recall something like a bride-gift. Have I missed something? Maybe this is unusual. Any feedback on all of this?



harto
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yes agung,
you are right, Bali is hindu. And for instance on Sumatera, there is Padang, where the woman reign. So the woman inheritate, and also rule. There a man marry into a Padang family. But be realistic, almost all westerners (had to) promise "to help" the family of the bride in future. This mostly ended in buiolding/buying a house for the parents or other relatives, sending monthly money for a stuyding brother/sister, paying hospitalbills for the relatives and sending monthly supportmoney as it were a pension.
On Java, Sulawesi, Medan, Maluku it is normal a man has to buy the bride for the equivalent of at least 2000 US$ up to much more.

Indonesian men are rather small, western girls in comparence rather tall. Western men are adventurers, western girls rather sceptical for marrying abroad, but if this foreigner come to their country and they get time to know him (like students) these indonesian men easy find a western girl.
harto



Agung
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Hi Harto,
Sounds like I had good luck. Interesting about the Padang region. By the way, my wife and I do help part of our family, but not because we have to or they ask for it.

E.G. we help our nephews & nieces with paying for SMP/SMA, since without help they tend to stop their education. As a matter of fact we push them a bit to study, since this is what will help them most in their life (in our view)

But, I feel I'm drifting to far from the subject. Better stop now.

Regards,

A.A.




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