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sidia
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Dear friends ,
of course I know very well the feeling .of some one who belongs to a minority group.
I am living for years Holland , foreigner , not white , and Muslim too.
You know what happened in Holland (and some other western ,democratic, civilized country.) after nine eleven.The Dutch say always we are tolerant , we have the freedom to speak etc etc , but as everybody knew there are some different ideas , fortunately by some dutch , Not all of them (only 60%).
That is why I say for several times to my fellow Indonesian , we Indonesian must go back to our basic principles , we must survive as a nation.
Pls Read : (GMNI) Tidak ada pribumi di negara kesatuan republik indonesia .
Bag 1-3 (google)

Btw : I am not a javanese , but sundanees .
But in the first place I am Indonesian and proud of it .






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dear Jan,

Thank you for your kind comment. I just can say that I am not at all wise Emoticon: Blush
Never objective and always subjective. Have only a partial truth to tell. Cannot speak like the author of Angela's Ashes, full of wisdom and forgiveness, and laughter along the sadness. Or the author of The Color Purple, who concluded that may be God's color is purple, not white nor black..
Actually, does your name has a real Johan in it? Just curious.
Have a nice day and take care.

Warm Regards from Jakarta to Amsterdam

WJ

P.S. Joy Jade...is it Turkey??? What are you doing there???? But take care, and may God bless you.



joy jade
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Hi SiDia
Yah, i do wish your experience as minority in Netherlands could enable you to straighten the mind our other indonesian friends who are still having prejudice upon chinese-ethnic in indonesia (especially in the city you are staying)....

Hi Johny Emoticon: Bye bye
yah u r correct. i am searching security, identity, better opportunity and being with my partner...
Btw, i am waiting your book too as Jan from Amsterdam Emoticon: Very funny








sidia
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Hi joy yade,
thanks fr yr vieuw.
There is always some socialproblems by the integrating of immigrant in their new land.Even in the Mekka of the Migrationland (USA).
They can survive as A Nation because the newcomers become an American citizen when they land.Proud to be american.
They have their so called Melting Pot , but everone know they have also people who lives in a Mozaik structure .(Little Tokyo, Italy, little havana, and china towns , with their own rules)
The americans try hard to banned racial and social problems.
They also have ethnicgroups , Afro american, Native American , Hispanic american , Asian american etc , but in the first place They are Americans.

That must also happened in Indonesia.
About the chineseethnics in indonesia , they have several hunderd years living in Indonesia.They are not more immigrants.
They have also a role in Indonesia in the past and I sure also for the future.
I have read somewhere in the internet ,I don't know true or not , believe it or not ) the The Wali Songo ("foundingfathers "of Islam in Indonesia ) are from chinese origine.
Rd Patah = Chen Jin Wen
Sunan Ampel = Bong Swoe Tho
Sunan Drajat = Bong Tah Keng
Sunan Bonan =Bong Tah Ang
8 of the 9 Wali Songo is from chinees origine.

But if some one don't feel free or have question about his/her own identity please feel free to go to another place.
It is pity if one of indonesian son/daughter wil leave indonesia , because indonesia need them, as accountant(to fight corruption) , as Lawyer(Lembaga Bantuan Hukum) or dokter (PusKes Mas).
They can help the poor people in indonesia and the nation.
regards



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Dear Sidia,

I hope our Government gives more attention the integrity and racial case. I believe the only President who gives attention to this matter is Gus Dur, and his administration lasted very shortly.
I heard also rumors that some of the 'Sunans' are of Chinese Origin.
What I mean is, I believe it's the time to make a law, just like other country, to ban racialism (which still happens in our society), not only to the Chinese, but to other minority, Indians, etc, etc. I believe, that once they become Indonesian's citizens, they are entitled all the rights and the obligations as borne by other citizens, and I agree with you, they shouldn't be the term 'pribumi', or 'Indonesia Asli'.
I believe, the movement wil at least give a light to the progress of Indonesia. And I believe, proud comes from the acceptance. My lecture once told us, the class, about how his son (because he lived and studied very long in USA) was once get some kind of racial discrimination (being called names and being throwed by plain water - he is a Javanese). They reported it to the police and there were a clear process and the doer (a native americaner) got fined. It's not about the fine, but it's about how the system reacted to this that really amazed me.

Regards

WJ

P.S. Joy Jade, good luck always. Emoticon: Shiny by the way, we have departed from the real issue, the name of Indonesia - although I have concluded 'what is in a name'?




Agung
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Hi Johny,
maybe a first step would be if Indonesia really stops using/asking for the SBKRI document.

From what I've heard, mostly (Indonesian) Chinese people are discriminated by asking for this document. Is this still the case?

I agree with you that Indonesia should have a law against discrimination. But before they can make such a law they'll have to erase a few old laws that advocate discrimination.

As a matter of fact, that Indonesia has discriminative laws against minorities is for me really the worst part of Indonesia.

The good news is, from what I've seen: average ordinary Indonesian people do not discriminate more than people from other countries. (Or better they are just as bad)

Greetings,

A.A.



harto
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Hi there,
As you all know, former "selamat pagi" has changed in salam aleikum.
At every introduction for a job, the first question is: agama ? and the second; where you are from ? I haven't heard untill now, a moskee was burned down in Indonesia ?
In former days, the dutch heritage were blamed for the bad economic situation, than long times the chinese were blamed, after that the whole west was blamed, thus because of not-having the "right" agama.
Really ?
How honest indonesians are, judging themselves.
Just some statistics, Indonesia was over 1200 years long untill 15th century hindu. Trading arabs brought than islam in 15th century, portuguese and dutch brought christianity.
On independence-day 1948, there were 55 juta orang indonesia,
25 juta orang christen, 25 juta orang islam and 5 juta hindu/budha/diff.
Nowadays there are 220 million indonesians, 184 millions muslims, 30 millions christians and 6 millions differents.
As indonesian government never gave priority to education/school/study after SD-level, this therefore stayed rather private matter, it was hard for the bigger (thus poorer) families, to educate well the next generation. Untill now this is an urgent problem. However more and more children become up to SMP-level education. But education stays a matter of money. Good education now is a matter of rich families (or lucky to gain a scolarship).
As western countries very well do know, best education is the key to a prosperitive future. So they spend 2 to 3 % of their national gross-budget. Indonesia expends 0,23 % yearly !
Every year about 13 millions youngsters finish a certain level school in indonesia and they can't get a job or can't go further at school. This is a tragedy for every young generation.
For failing schoolsystem, pensionschemes for the elder, access to health-service for all indonesians, the high level of unimployments and the bad economic situation,
government still blames all others, preferently members of the indonesian minorities, but not themselve. State and religion should be separated as in every democratic country is practised, so what indonesians abroad also expects and find in their resp. immigration-countries, but it is not true in indonesia. It allready starts at school-level, where tolerance against the minorities in indonesia, not really is educated. Even in the koran-schools forcing the minorities to convert is taught. The tragedy now is, that because of this system of mismanagement, the real guilts are not the normal people, even if they talk/think bad about all minorities in indonesia, no the real guilts are the ruling elite, who abuse the minorities to hide their incompetents.
Just imagine, indonesia, nr. 5 biggest world-oil-supplyer, at the moment generating 5 x the normal/regular income of oil-revenues (over 400 billion US$ yearly ! !), natural gas, fishing, wood, tin, gold and agrarian exports also on the list for big exports. What government does with this money. Bappa Suharto did it very clever (155 billion US$) over 32 years long and nobody in indonesia blame him. Together with his "friends" they ripped indonesian economy for more than 1000 billion US$ in 32 years and resp. blamed the dutch/chinese/christians/americans for their home-made-icecream, and the indonesians believed and copied their talks.

Indonesians wake up, nobody else is to blame as your ruling elite, nor the chinese, nor the dutch (in the meantime antiques ! after 60 years), nor the christians, nor the americans.
Indonesians wake up, please finally become a country with place for all diversities, without mobbing the minorities, than you'll become a nation too.
harto



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Dear Agung,

I hope that you are fine. I don't know if SKBRI has been got ridden of by now. If I am not mistaken Gus Dur initiated the step - but I really don't have any idea. The last time I got problem with SKBRI was 12 years ago (applying for UMPTN). After that time, I don't have much to do with the government offices until now. I will see to it, and inform you, because I plan to have a passport next year. Emoticon: Shiny

Dear Harto,

Emoticon: Worship I am speechless.

Regards

WJ



sascha
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True words harto.
Just spread the word.
But the ruling class can have no interest in better education. With a certain level of knowledge people will realise what really happens. will be hard to rule the masses then Emoticon: Wink
most people dont care too much about what we discuss about here, they just struggle to survive every day. no time for revolutionary thoughts.
let's hope for a better tomorrow.



sidia
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Dear friends ,
I almost agree with harto except the part abt mosque , it happened also.
About the number of christian at 1948 , are they 50 % of the indonesian ?
As everyone know in indonesia(maybe also abroad) , the most indonesian with islam background are the KTP people.
The blaming of groups , foreigner even the dutch is politic.
But it is not 100% untrue , example the Krismon 1998.

The indonesian people are fighting for their freedom & future , there are some periode of fighting .
Example the Angkatan 28 , Angkatan 45 , Angkatan 66 , Angkatan Reformasi(98).
The poor people know the corruptors with their friends , the are not stupid but they have no power , they can do nothing .
Only in the time of election.
And because they are moslim , they want go back to their basic en to united .
And that is their power.
That is why the western countries and people must help the indonesian , if they are realy concerned (yes , realy concerned , not lipservice) with the indonesian people , because if there something wrong happened , it can happen also with bloodshed.
That is the reason to keep Indonesia united.
I am sure there will be a new Angkatan who will fight the corruptors with their friends.





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guys,
i think we are all mature enuff to be not provocated by such "once in a blue moon" poster like that guy up there
none of his staments are valid

lets keep this forum a nice place to share, to discuss
whoever u are,whatever u are and wherever u are

hmm...but having notice johny's posts, i agree with johanw, i think u re a wise guy john! hehee...how old are u? not younger than me i guess? Emoticon: Very funny



aku tak memiliki cinta, aku hanya memiliki nafsu, telah kubunuh cintaku dan ku kubur dalam-dalam sanubari www.ryanwijaya.com

Agung
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I don't care if people provocate me. It does not hurt. As a matter of fact, maybe it's good if people with ridiculous ideas post something on a forum like this. That is, under the condition that they're brave enough to read the replies they get!

Emoticon: Very funny

Then, I don't think all of Sidia's reply is all nonsense. Most of it is just telling what has happened in the past and true. To start blaming problems on Muslims has an interesting aspect: it would be the first time that the majority is blamed for problems instead of a minority, but I'm afraid just as counter productive! So, not the way to go!

Then, about fighting for peace and freedom.
Just remember:
Fighting for peace is like fucking for virginity.
Sorry guys, itís a bit rude, but the idea is that itís easy to rememberÖ.



harto
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Hi folks,
as an indo with a very very warm feelings for (still) my Indonesia, it is easier to see what happens in indonesia, than for the indonesians themselves in indonesia. I'm in the lucky position of tarveling at least 2 times yearly to indonesia and as I and my wife (original ex-pat sumatera) still have veryu very close contacts to our relatives and friends, we remarked the slow changes and trends very well.
Let's be honest about the real situation, every psychologist knows the normal human reaction, when a human being is challenged. Coming from an economic rather weak country, with low level educated people, the people in charge very well know, how to play this instrument (rakyat indonesia).
As I already wrote, education is expensive, need a very very long run, before it brings success, so what is easier to look for cheaper ways to strengthen the feelings of rakyat indonesia. As in many relative poor and all not-democratic countries, it is easier to find a minority to condemn and make them guilty for all troubles.
A government who commits they did wrong (almost impossible in poorer and not-democratic states) is rare, as in the old days in europe, the ruling class abused religion to keep the people small. (politics and church cooperated and divided power among them and the poor didnot realise).
The incompetents and failures of may poor countries and many not-democratic countries, which happened to be almost islamic countries, was to neglect education, not to open and allow democratic structures in their governments, so in fact they stayed totally regimes, to close their countries for the modernities and modern developments, to infrastruct corruption,
yes these are not really nice themes to convess, so they learned from the middle-ages in europe, how to stay in charge and to keep power blaming others. They abuse religion (islam) in stead of investing in their infratructure or education, learn their people not tolerance, but to mission other religions as the holy goal. Suharto was a good exampel, he underground worked very well together with the islamic leaders in indonesia, gave them money to ease building moskees, to push opening koranschools, in stead of opening better normal schools, and so Suharto was granted all power to stay in charge without islamic (most people) opposition.
And lets be honest, would it not be better, if muslims were so intelligent, that they could built their own aircrafts, ships, had their own electronic brand, were a worldwide car-manufacterer, had their own medicineresearch and brands, could sell their own oil worldwide ? Yes it would be, but as already remarked, to control intelligent people is hard, so is the elite really interested to educate the big number of poor ? It is a decission made by the elite how they want to stay in charge. No, it is easier and cheaper to look backwards than to look forwards.
The protests in most arab countries against their feodal leaders, untill now is roughly reduced with military power in name of the islam. Islam itself stays for peace, but is more and more abused and with this the good name of islam gets more and more infected in the western world.
Would the governments of indonesia, pakistan, or all arab countries became honest democratic countries, people there would be more satified in deviding the fruits of their common work and choose the future direction.
harto



sidia
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Dear friends : some info to add.

Before Indonesia Merdeka (17 agustus 1945 , not 1948)
1.There are more 90%(ninety-sembilan puluh) analfabets
2.The pribumi share in the Nederlandse Indie income is only 3,6 milj
guilders=0.54%.

Indonesia Merdeka : there are only(too much) 9.07 % analfabets(nine %)
(older than 10 jr )
with SLTA- PT (higher education) =>19% (nineteen)
(older 10 jr)
85% schools are run by the government.
Now adays maybe more because the increasing of the inh. from 220 to 240 milj.
Source www.detik.com
www.republika.co.id
www.ideueom.org/info/html
About the relationship between the several administration (even de Pak Harto adm.) with some of muslims are sometimes love & hate relationship.
Pak Harto do you have heard about the Piagam DJAKARTA and the D.I/T.I.I. movement ?
salam



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sidia
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Forgotten: the first Islamic Kingdom are the Kingdom of Perlak and Samudra Pasai (1290 AD)


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