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dear Sidik,

Ok. Emoticon: Smile
Those words also mean that I have my own experiences. Yes, I have.

Regards

WJ



sidia
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Johny ,
Everyone have his own personal experience , Sidia too.
A story : In the past (many years ago) someone has learn that the law is not equal for everyone , his family is in conflict with another person .
The other persoon can make arrangement with a civil servants even with the police. The father of the first person was put in a cel for a couple hours.
The other party dont know the familybackground of the first persoon, a short call to a nephew (army) , and everything is O.K
They dont see the other persoon anymore , maybe emigration ?


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dear Sidia,

Everyone has his/her own story and personal experience. And everyone has his/her own partial truth, based on his/her background, ethnicity, religion, and such - nobody can claim that he/she is objective. Objectivity only can be achieved when we are outside the problem we discuss (like in lab) - but to solve a social problem in which we are a part of, we can't help for being subjective. And it is the willingness to open our talking and listening that can help to solve many social problems peacefully. (this is advertisment: please read "Solving Tough Problems' by Adam Kahane).

Regards

WJ

P.S. Is the story about your family?



sidia
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Johny :
It is just a story.
Abt the 2 nd persoon in the story , as you aware he is an Indonesian from an ethnicsgroup.
Sidia have many friends from that ethnic groups(like brother & sisters) and we are equal.Because in the first place they are Indonesian ,think , and act as an Indonesian. (Bhineka Tunggal Ika spirit ).
Some of my friends have more red&white blood than an average Indonesian.

About truth :
it is a fact that some people from that ethnicsgroup are acting that they can buy everything.


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dear Sidia,

There are always bad people and good people in every ethnic groups. And as I told you, the truth - it's your truth. And what is a fact? for example, When we see the London Bombing, everyone has different perception based on the truth he/she holds. The fact is that there was a bombing. There were many people died. But then many people have different opinion: some said (like a famous cleric in London) it's not fair that one group of ethnic/religion become a target to terrorist finding operation. Some people said that the operation afterwards is justified - but it's only partial truths, not a fact.
I believe, we have talked something off topic (the topic is about the name of Indonesia) and better end it here. In fact, I have tried to avoid this talking.


Regards

WJ



sidia
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Johny : AGREE , otherwise ngalor ngidul(O.T.)
De discussion began because some Foreigners(?) think that the name of Indonesia maybe can be changed.
Of course there are some social(conflict of interest) , economical & political problems in Indonesia.
Indonesia is basic at Sumpah Pemuda , Panca Sila and the spirit of Bhineka Tunggal Ika. And some of the indonesian are forgotten that they are nothing without the NKRI. F.e what is Riau , Flores and the so called RMS (read : Ambon,Haruku, Saparua).


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sidik
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Sidia,
What was the present Republik Indonesia before the Dutch came? A string of independent kingdoms which has nothing to do with each other.
What do the regions of the present Republik Indonesia have in common? They were all occupied by the Dutch.
During World War II, Germany and Japan each occupied different independent countries. Imagine that in 1945 a man in Europe or Asia claimed to be the president of all those former occupied territories. And with the help of the United States the man succeeds. Isn't it logical that those former independent countries ultimately want their own identity back? Don't you remember (know) what happened in the late forties and fifties/sixties in Indonesia? RIS, Permesta, Daud Beureuh, DI/TII, Blitar, Aceh, Kahar Muzakar, RMS a few words to refresh your memory.
So maybe Indonesia as a name is not an invention of the Dutch, but it is surely a heritage of them.




tunawisma, tunakarya, tunamasalah

sidia
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Sidik
Indonesia is replacing the old Indonesian kingdoms , like Srivijaya , Majapahit , Mataram , Pajajaran , Banten , Demak etc etc.Same proces also happened in Europe.
For example Friesland , Limburg , Haarlem , Amsterdam etc , etc become Netherlands.
The kingdoms in Indonesia like Mayapahit (javanese) en Pajajaran (sunda)are close , sometimes basic on marriage amongs the royals.
The common between the Batakker, Ambonees, Javanees, Sundanees , Sumatraan etc etc is the Sumpah Pemuda , and later the proclamation of Republik Indonesia.As you know the Sumpah is replacing the Sumpah Palapa (Majapahit=Gajahmada +/- 1300) long before the landing of the dutch (Cornelis Houtman at Bantam 1596 ?)

About : PRRI, PERMESTA, DI.TII etc : the reason is conflict of interest with jakarta .RMS is another story.
Pse read Sejarah Pemberontakan di Indonesia WWW.Indonesia-house.org
Have someone forgotten his SMA period ?
Sorry for my tarzan english (nyusahin gua aja)
groetjes



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Dear Sidia,

Only you have to remember that Padjajaran was conquered with foxy strategy by Gadjah Mada - in Perang Bubat. So it is not comparable between Sumpah Palapa and Soempah Pemoeda. And there were also some debate at the making of UUD --> for example About the criteria of President of Indonesia which almost made some regions said they didn't want to be in Indonesia.
And I believe, Sidik has a point in saying that Indonesia was born because of the imperialism. The imperialism gave rise to the feeling of togetherness and of the same destiny among the people.

Regards

WJ



sidia
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Johny :
Indonesia is NOT BORN because imperialism.Because indonesian youth (students) have decided to -------
Please read what sumpah palapa is en what the meaning of sumpah pemuda is.you can also come to museum sumpah pemuda , kramat raya jakarta or via google to get more proper info


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sidia
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Johny :
Gajah Mada want to united(annexed?) Nusantara and before that happened he wil not ------ .
Sumpah Pemuda is the will of Indonesian Youth(students/intelegensia) to United Indonesia.
Are you forgotten your SMA time ? (Sejarah Indonesia)


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Agung
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Hi Anis,
as far as I know Nusa Antara already has a meaning. With this the islands in the SE of Indonesia are mentioned. i.e.: Bali, Lombok, Sumbawa etc...

Then, I think a few hunderd years ago all countries far from Europe were called India or Indie or Indians. As a matter of fact in Belanda they had the East Indies company (making money in Indonesia) and the west Indies company (making money in the Americas)

Also, I'm afraid the country Indonesia was "created" by the Dutch. I mean Indonesia consists of all the islands that were "collected" by the Dutch at the time they were kicked out of the country in about 1949.





sidik
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On 03-08-2005 14:20 Agung wrote:


Also, Im afraid the country Indonesia was "created" by the Dutch. I mean Indonesia consists of all the islands that were "collected" by the Dutch at the time they were kicked out of the country in about 1949.



Sidia yth,

This is what some of us mean! Does Sumpah Palapa cover all the regions that is Republik Indonesia now? I don't think so.

Jangan sewot yah Emoticon: Shiny


tunawisma, tunakarya, tunamasalah

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Dear Sidia,

I always think that history is for those who win. Like in the case of Gadjah Mada. He betrayed Pajajaran, and yet he was hailed as the hero for annexing some other kingdoms. Of course I know Sumpah Palapa.
And jong java, and so on came together to make Soempah Pemoeda. But all I can think of is that the main reason of them making the Soempah Pemoeda was because they felt they had the same fate in the hands of cruel imperialism. If then we related it to Sumpah Palapa, that's because we wanted to show that the notion to be united come from within. The range of time was too long to make such a real impact, in my opinion. And besides, not only Majapahit was big in the past. There was also Sriwijaya (previously), don't forget about it. And remember, at the time the Dutch came, there were independent kingdoms. Like in Bali, and some other regions. Do you think, if they were never annexed by the Dutch, they would have willingly join because of the Sumpah Palapa?
You may say that there had been a real impact of Soempah Palapa if the Dutch had come here to fight Majapahit alone.
But however the history is, now Indonesia has stand as a country, and I think we don't need to debate about the choice or name or else, but do something to make progress.

Regards

WJ

P.S. We may read the same material but with different understanding.



sidik
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Johny,

As always, wise words! Emoticon: Worship


tunawisma, tunakarya, tunamasalah

sidia
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Dear friends
" Now Indonesia has stand as a country " Yes , wise words from johny .
And I hope for ever .
For me and sure for millions fellow Indonesian is The Sumpah Pemuda , Proklamasi , Bhineka Tunggal Ika and Panca Sila the basic of our country.
The future will learn if the Indonesian will choise what they will do with their freedom.(Of course without intervention from outside)


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Sidik,

Never I be wise, nor knowledgeable.
Emoticon: Laugh out loud
Regards

WJ



AnisJ
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Agung,

I had read your message, at least your the only one, who stayed close to the topic issue ...... uptill now !!! You could be right, if ..... the rights of 'name given' belonged to the oldest data.... so the credits are going to the Sankrit language which NUSAnTARA, was derived from.
As far as 'NUSAnTara', one should not mistaken by 'NusaTENGgara' !!!
Westerners always put a claim on history/data ..... because they always had the written historical data and interpreted as they please, as there 'allied countries' .......
And they only except written data, not oral for instance ..... although there are
methods to check oral historic data ......
An example how historic data is manipulated: 'Recently a very old Chinese Vessel was found before the coast of California/U.S.A. ...... what does this mean for the North-American history and the discovery of Christoffel Columbus .......'
This means that Europeans are not the 'core of civilisation' they had claimed for ages, but a sum of other big civilisations ......
So Western superiority, what the heck .......

Greets Anis.


'Ahu kura ahia, mansia nia'

sidia
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Friends ,
about the name of indonesia.
If some of you will give or choose another name , please feel free (silahkan) , but the indonesian have make their choise.


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Agung
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Europeans are not the 'core of civilization' they had claimed for ages

From archeology I understand the real source of human civilization is Africa.

An example how historic data is manipulated: 'Recently a very old Chinese Vessel was found before the coast of California/U.S.A. ...... what does this mean for the North-American history and the discovery of Christopher Columbus .......'

What about the native American Indians?

Now I know why there is no more exploration of the moon. The Americans are scared to find something ancient there from the same people who build the pyramids.... Emoticon: Smile




sidia
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It doesnot matter
we are all childeren of god


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Agung
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To come back on the original subject.

I think Indonesia is a good name for our country. The name reflects the whole nation, which is most important and is well known all over the globe. I don't see any reason to change it.



AnisJ
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Agung yth.,

If I would call myself 'INDonesian' I would be very embarrased especially for the meaning ...... no wonder Malaysians call INDOnesians "IDON's" !!!
I think what the country needs is a new 'elan' there is a new generation that is coming of age ........ so new ideas, please.
To give an example: We always call people at the North-Pole "Eskimo's", but
these people prefer themselves to be called: "Inuit" - meaning: 'People'; 'Eskimo' is a nickname given by the native indians meaning: 'Raw flesh eaters'.
If we take this as an example, why not for this vast country of Islands, including a federalistic system that would make it possible for every minority in this country to recognize themselves within the national identity.

Greets .... Anis.



'Ahu kura ahia, mansia nia'

Bintaro
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UNITED ISLANDS OF INDONESIA

= edit: please don't use all capitals =



AnisJ
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Agung yth.,

You know, that for some time Europeans explained the pyramids in Egypt as 'extraterrestrial' in order to maintain European supriority, as a civilization.
In their 'ethnocentric way of thinking' they do not think that Egyptians are able to build these pyramids themselves .....
'Do INDOnesians -----> especially Javanese make this same mistake as:
'INDOnesia as a name for a country ???'.

Greets .... Anis.


'Ahu kura ahia, mansia nia'


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