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diederick
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Bunda Belanga wrote:
oh and by the way....did you know that the indonesian word ' sepeda ' is derived from the french word ' velocipede'....so french influence as well i guess! (lemari from the french '" l'armoire" )

Both words are derived from Portuguese, not French. Other examples " bandeira" (flag), "trigo" (wheat flower), "mesa" (table). Until the middle of the 19th century Portuguese was used by a significant part of the Eurasian people in Indonesia (and Malakka, Ceylon, India). So the Portuguese language left some traces in Malay.




JohanN
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And do not forget sepatu which is also derived from Portuguese.



Begin de details te vergeten

AnisJ
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Emoticon: Clown Cindy Emoticon: Clown Emoticon: I love it ,

"Is the Dutch word manie derived from the English word maniacal ......?" Emoticon: Stupid
"Do not exaggerate .........".
"What do you think a forum like this is for ......?"
"Do we all people like to make our dream(s) come true; but what happens when this is not realized ........???"
Why do you give such a severe reaction, on this matter; it is not good to romantize and idealize INDOnesia !!!
"To keep Yerun at work, or else ......."
A forum is ,to me, more a way of posting your idea or point of view or do a have say , then you stick to it or get drowned with it !!!!
Romantisation and idelisation will not bring this country any further ...
it will help it to the drain then this country will not be able to see itself as it is .....
It should mirror itself to see its face, its belly, its feet and its hands.
"Its face: for its indentity; its belly: Is INDOnesia able to feed its peoples ; its feet: Is INDOnesia to walk alone; its hands: Is it able to do it with its own ambitions ? And the last but not the least, will this country have enough capibility to solve this biggest job, ever !!!
Otherwise it will have to be the servant of India or China or both of them together !!!

Greets ....
Anis



'Ahu kura ahia, mansia nia'

sidik
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Anis

Is the country you refer to, not already a servant of Japan?


tunawisma, tunakarya, tunamasalah

AnisJ
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Sidik yth,

Sidik: Jangan tanja ...... Do not ask, you know the answer(s) !!!
But would others know, or worse do they pretend not to know !!!

Still, I invite you to tell more about your experiences about this period when nationally the NUSAnTARA idea was developed !!!
Very little is told about this recent period !!!
I thought it was derived from the Sriviyaya period ???
So .... silahkan ???

Greets .... Anis.


'Ahu kura ahia, mansia nia'

AnisJ
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[ Diederick with trade relations I have meant, in contrast with militairy extension .
In INDOnesia, as you will probably know, militairy hardliners favour very much militairy extension, just look at the Kalimantan campaign in the sixties and recently the East-Timor campaign .
But ...... if you compare these campaigns, in effectiveness, with trade relations it did not bring much profit; in both militairy campaigns the INDOnesian national army had to withdraw and call off the actions.
To me, it was a waste of energy, lives and time. Just because some generals wanted to play with their toys !!!
So homogeniety should not be token as a fact !!!
INDOnesia should not put all his cards on unitarism but probably on federalism !!!
Till now unitarism does not bring much progress for the INDOnesian society in till the year 2.000 !!!
So it is time to change and play the federalistic game and .... change the name into NUSAnTARA !!! NEW TIMES NEED NEW ICONS !!!
Besides unitarism supports and straightens the monopoly of curruption, by certain institutions in the INDOnesian system.
INDOnesia should study the proces in modern day Europe !!!

Besides ..... if you compare it with the profit of trade relations : the INDOnesian (behasa/language) is an everlasting success-story !!! Untill nowadays centres of trade like: Singapore, Malakka, Banda Aceh, Makassar, Ambon, Ternate/Tidore still exists ......
Moreover nowadays the INDOnesian national army know they can not withdraw from the fact that it is time to reorganise and demoncratize this army into a more effectice one, of only a few thousands (?) .
I agree in quotation with mr. Wahid that INDOnesia does not need a national army of 1/one million soldiers: ".... because the country is not at war !!!"
This national army needs to be reform into a more professional one and wthdraw from their nowadays position in society, back into their barracks again.
The idea that the army should discipline society and bring it to a higher level with militairy management should be abandoned !!!
Untill now this idea had only worsened the corruption scene inside the country !!!
But ...... I want to return to Sidiks remark:

But I cannot help thinking also that the united archipelago you refer is an invention of the Dutch. So maybe we should discuss also if it is justified that parts of that archipelago want their independency.

Sidik , do you know that it takes another Englishman to contribute to your remark on this matter !!!
According to mr. A.R. Wallace INDOnesia should be devided into 2/two parts by his so called: Line of Wallace as far as it flora and fauna .
This line goes: in between Bali/Lombok island to in between Kalimantan and Sulawesi island , in the north.
The line of Wallace devides INDOnesia in an Asian and Austranesian part, you are able to see it on the map at: http://www.runet.edu/~swoodwar(...)/zoogeog/walline.gif
For his background on: http://www.iol.ie/~spice/alfred.htm
mr. Wallace was a close friend of mr. Darwin; he inspired him of writing The theory of evolution .





'Ahu kura ahia, mansia nia'

AnisJ
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IN A 'STRANGE' WAY SOMETHING WENT WRONG ......

I want to add something still ... "That is why homogeniety is a fake !!!"
Sidik one way or the other the text from 'downunder' went to the lead of the article !!!

Greets .... Anis.
In Moluccas we say: AMATto/untill we meet again !!!


'Ahu kura ahia, mansia nia'

sidik
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Anis'

The Wallace line is a way to recognize the differences, not only concerning flora and fauna. Just look at the faces of people from Java and Flores.
And within the Wallace line there are big differences too. You might remember, or know, that one time there were separatists from Sabang to Merauke. Sumatra, Kalimantan, Sulawesi, Maluku, Irian. Even on West-Java there was the anti Soekarno DI-TII. Names from the past: Daud Beureuh, Kahar Muzakar, Permesta, Papua Merdeka and of course RMS.



tunawisma, tunakarya, tunamasalah

AnisJ
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Sidik yth.,

Before this christian-islamist war broke out, what was provoked - to my opinion by the army and worsened, there was an interesting process ahead among firstly christians ....
Catholics use 'adat' elements to unite them with protestants, by using 'adat elements' for oekomene in a Moluccan way !!!
Just at the time they want to invite islamists to join in ......this conflict broke out
as we know today !!!

Greets .... Anis.



'Ahu kura ahia, mansia nia'

Albert
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All his links can be found here;

http://www.gemeentemusea-delft(...)nl/gmd21012005/thema's.aspx?m=Nusantara

But all is in Dutch language.

Some extra about the VOC.
http://www.gemeentemusea-delft(...)collectie/index.html


Wil je ook meester van je eigen leven zijn? http://www.goudenera.nl

diederick
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With all respect, this site offer just meager information and at points even completely wrong(the VOC is not a 16th century multinational, because founded in 1602 (17th century), padifields were already there and sugarcane was not grown for the population of Batavia but for export and so on, and so on). Maybe Anis was triggered by the much cherished term Nusantara, a moluccan museum in the same city.



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Nusantara a moluccan museum?

Thought this Delft museum is all about Indonesian history and culture,and yes its called Nusantara and it explains its history on its website....as far as I know this is the only museum in Delft called Nusantara.....

I know there is a Moluccan museum in Utrecht, called Moluks Historisch Museum.....



diederick
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Mohon ma'af, i was indeed very wrong. I will make it good by visiting it when I am back in the Netherlands.



AnisJ
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Actually all the previous .... my purpose was to give general informations !!!
I did not all check it out thoroughly .... Diederick and thanks Albert, for helping me out; indeed the previous links did not work quite well !!!
If Albert did not had helped me out ... I was intended to try something(s) else !!!
I am intended to do more links to support the essence, I hope Yerun as a garding provider will allow me to do this !!!
I wonder what you all think of these articles, because these art.cls give more 'background-info'.
For INDOnesia today : http://infoplease.com/spot/Indonesia1.html
For militairy : http://www.eastwestcenter.org/(...)d/pdfs/EWCOBS041.pdf
Also : http://www.labyrinth.net.au/~ftimor/prdoc12.html
For terrorism : http://www.crisisweb.org/home/(...)ndex.cfm?id=2150&I=1
For religion in nowadays INDOnesia: http://www.jubileecampaign.co.uk/world/indo1.htm
An interview with mr. Munir : http://www.islamlib.com/en/pag(...)le&mode=print&id=724
About Islam extremism inside INDOnesia : http://www.crisisgroup.org/hom(...)ndex.cfm?id=2142&I=1

I hope you all give me 'feedback' about these articles !!!




'Ahu kura ahia, mansia nia'

AnisJ
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Oops ... the first one was: http://www.infoplease.com/spot/indonesia1.html

Greets .... Anis.


'Ahu kura ahia, mansia nia'

AnisJ
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Dear all ,

I wonder what you as a reader think: "Would INDOnesia be better off, if the state will be transformed from a unitarian state (republic) into a federalistic state: (a sort of United States of INDOnesia/NUSAnTARA) ???"
"Will this trnaformation be better, on the long term for all the separistic movements ?"

Greets ...... Anis.


'Ahu kura ahia, mansia nia'

sidik
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I think a federal republic is the best solution for that archipelago. A new Republik Indonesia Serikat ?


tunawisma, tunakarya, tunamasalah

AnisJ
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D. reader(s),

Are we people that are viewing topics in a logistic way, or are we viewing matters in a more instinctif way ???
In INDOnesia you will have the example of Joyoboyo the raja of Kediri.
In this topic there are remarks to be found of 'Javanese'; are Javanese homoginious are have the also a different interpretation of his predictions ???
Are there differences in logistics and/or inststinctifs ???

What do you personally think ???
Just read this article and tell me what you think about it:
http://www.hamline.edu/apakaba(...)1996/08/23/0008.html

Greets Anis.



'Ahu kura ahia, mansia nia'

JohanN
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Hi Anis,
What are you exactly trying to tell us? I totally do not understand what your point is. Emoticon: Blush
Do I have to read an article from 1996 to understand?
Regards, Johan


Begin de details te vergeten

AnisJ
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Johan yth.,

Actually I had made a typing error with 'logistic' I mean 'logic' !!!
But ... what is wrong with the date of articles ??? Are you such a person that only go for the newest of new ???
What does essence means for you ???

Greets .... Anis; thanks for your feed back !!!


'Ahu kura ahia, mansia nia'

londoh
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The shaping of Indonesia by the Dutch in the 19th century.

After the bankruptcy of the VOC (Vergaan onder Corruptie) in 1799 the Koninkrijk Holland took over the debts and the possessions of the VOC. In Indonesia those possessions were only a part of Java, a few islands in the Moluccas, Makassar, Banjarmassin and some other ‘handelsposten’ spread over the Archipelago. In the beginning of the 1800’s the Dutch did not even know how to manage this all, but they learned and occupied and exploited Indonesia in a very profitable way. The island of Java really became a goldmine after the establishing of the “Cultuurstelsel” invented by governor-general J.van den Bosch in 1830. He had his experiences in the West Indies in the exploitation of sugar plantations were negro slaves did the work. Of course the relatively small community of Dutch in the Indies could not manage all those immense projects by themselves, they worked close together with the “priyayi” who had a vast experience in exploiting their own people.

With money coming in the Dutch also decided to conquer and establish their power in the whole Archipelago.To achive this the K.N.I.L. (Koninklijk Nederlands Indisch Leger) was found in 1830. The 19th century was a time of war in the Indies, besides all kind of “actions” by the Dutch, two big wars with many victims were fought out, the Java War (1826 – 1830) against Diponegoro and the Aceh War which started in 1871 and apart from a few breaks actually never ended untill today. After many “pacifications” enforced under Governor-general J.B. van Heustz, Indonesia became in 1910 the territory what it is now, so one can state the country has been formed by the Dutch. Van Heutsz was a soldier and a quite tough one, one can say a “war criminal” but who cared in those days. Actually the shaping of Indonesia took 2 very tough and cruel men: Jan Pieterzoon Coen, the founder of Batavia, as the center of the VOC imperium and Van Heutz. In fact JPzC also wanted to conquer China as he saw great possibilities but China was ‘a bridge too far’ It seems strange but to advance Indonesia it takes tough men, we can compare Coen and Van Heutsz with Suharto, who actually did great things to pull Indonesia out of the mess in which Sukarno the country had left. But Suharto has got a bad name in Indonesia, I suppose when he will be dead he will receive a “Pahlawan Nasional” status of unknown proportions and his name will placed besides that of Soekarno as Bapak Pembangunan. We will have Jl. Raya Suharto in every town and city and of course lots of ugly statues of this “smiling general” here and there.

The Dutch also introduced the Malay language in the Archipelago in a form that could be used by everybody. In the 19th century at first the candidate civil servants had to learn Javanese, but this was too complicated (see: De Indologen, ambtenaren voor de Oost 1825 – 1950 by Cees Fasseur) and also not practical. With al the outpostst established in the 19th century the Dutch needed an easy language that could be used by them and the ‘inlanders’ that was the Malay language that had already been used in the Archipelago as the linga franca for ages. In 1901 Prof. Ch.A. van Ophuysen published his 'Kitab Logat Melajoe' a dictionary with the Malay language in the Latin spelling, before that book appeared the Malay language was written in Arabic script, so for many people not accesible. In 1908 the Dutch founded de “Commisie voor Volkslectuur” (Balai Poestaka) to promote and spread cheap and good literature in Malay among ordinairy people. The Malay language became also the language to be taught in schools and used in newspapers. One can say the introduction of the Malay language was a big succes, everybody who could read loved reading after books and newspapers were spread. In 1910 Van Ophuysen published his Maleische Spraakkunst . This book was translated by T.W. Kamil under the title Tata Bahasa Melayu which became important for the speading of the Malay language under the native population of Indonesia.

So when the Indonesian Youth Congress took place on Octobre 28, 1928 a lot of work for the Sumpah Pemuda was already done by the Dutch. ‘Satu Nusa & Satu Bahasa’ was ready for the taking they just added ‘Satu Bangsa’ which was the ultimate dream in those days, and actually still is. As the making of Satu Bangsa costed the TNI lots of work and bullets apart of that a lot of money was spent on transmigration projects. The Satu Bangsa has been misused by all the Indonesian goverments for Javanisasi of the Republik Indonesia. Today the people of Aceh and Papua still don’t believe they have to suffer under Javanese colonisation. The national anthem of Indonesia ‘Indonesia Raya’ composed by WR Supratman, welknown because his face is on the 50.000 Rp note, which was played for the first time in public on the mentioned Youth congress is also said to be an imitation of a Dutch song i.e. ‘Pinda, Pinda, Lekka, Lekka’ sung in the 1920’s by Willy Derby, a man who became famous in Indonesia because he is also the composer of ‘Hallo Bandoeng’

When we look at Indonesia in 2005, sesudah 60 tahun merdeka, we see a bankrupt country, bankrupt in the first place because of the corruption, second because of indolence. It is sad to see that after independence the Indonesians weren’t capable to exploit their country in a profitable manner such as the Dutch always managed. Today it is a sell-out of their natural recources, nearly no industrialisation, no new ideas, only lots of talking They had a few good years under Suharto but that seems to be ages ago. It is a pity that one of the richest countries in the world is in such a desolate condition.

Londoh





AnisJ
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Londoh yth.,
On 28-05-2005 15:30 londoh wrote:
The shaping of Indonesia by the Dutch in the 19th century.
When we look at Indonesia in 2005, sesudah 60 tahun merdeka, we see a bankrupt country, bankrupt in the first place because of the corruption, second because of indolence. It is sad to see that after independence the Indonesians weren’t capable to exploit their country in a profitable manner such as the Dutch always managed. Today it is a sell-out of their natural recources, nearly no industrialisation, no new ideas, only lots of talking They had a few good years under Suharto but that seems to be ages ago. It is a pity that one of the richest countries in the world is in such a desolate condition.

Londoh

in the end after reading the end of your 'reaction', is it not reasonable to conclude that the time of unitarism and dwifungi had failed and that therefore INDOnesia have to return towards federalism !!!
So the army has got to return to their barracks !!!
"But who will bring INDOnesia back on trail ???"
"Will SBY the last militairy president ???"

Greets ... Anis


'Ahu kura ahia, mansia nia'

londoh
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"Will SBY the last militairy president ???"

Greets ... Anis


Anis Yth,

The Indonesian president Mr. Susilo Bambang Yudhoyono is not a militairy president but a civilian. He is a retired general, he retired on Sept. 25, 2000.
He was chosen by the Indonesian people during the most democratic elections Indonesia has ever seen. I think it is not our task, as foreigners, to tell Indonesians what to do, they have experienced that for hundreds of years, they are actually still traumatized by that colonial period. In my opinion Mr. SBY is a very serious and hardworking man, who has taken the burden on his shoulders to restore a bankrupt, economically as wel as morally, country. There is some progress, but very slow. Normally spoken it will take at least he whole 5 years of his presidency to make something visible that make sense to the people of Indonesia. If they have enough patience for that ? Insy'allah.

Kind regards

Londoh



AnisJ
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Londoh yth.,

What is a difference between a retired and active militairy person ????
Like they say "old soldieres never die" ; we will wait how he performs:
good or bad. Talentaya di mana ??? What talents are there avaliable with SBY???
In the end the results that counts !!!!
That is what history is for, isn't it, Diederick ???

Greets ... Anis; thanks for feed-back Londoh.


'Ahu kura ahia, mansia nia'

sidia
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what about Sumpah Palapa (Mayapahit Kingdom, founded bij raden Wijaya 1294) and replaced bij Sumpah Pemuda 28 okt 1928


Bisa dicek mas . http://omsid.multiply.com/


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