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AnisJ
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Dear Indo-medis,

I want to stress your attention to the fact that "INDOnesia" as a name for that country along the equator.
The name 'Indonesia' was given by an English antropoligist named :
Logan and was derived from the latin words 'Indos Nesos': meaning
Indian islands.
The various cultures of the divers archipelagos are different
than the culture(s) of India !!! Of course Indonesia as a name for this
country is very much promoted in the time of independence.
A better name for this country consisting of different archipelagos is
'Nusaantara': meaning 'archipelago of communication.'
The French word: entre is also derived from 'antara'.

I hope that the readers have a motre perspectif view while using 'Indonesia' for the country of many archipelagos.

Greets ... Anis.


'Ahu kura ahia, mansia nia'

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Hi AnisJ,

I didn't know Indonesia did get it's name from Indian Islands. I even think a lot of people take Indonesia for granted when using the word by itself. Do you have some english (or perhaps dutch) links about the information about this? I found antara on Google, but it has another meaning i think....

Greetings,

Joris



Sepp Buys
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I would reffer to the United Islands of Spices or United Islands of AustrAsia.



AnisJ
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Answer to previous 2/1,

Joris .... to be honest , on the internet, I do not know, but I have read it in a book that is availiable by the Dutch 'Tropeninstituut'.
This is the former series of 'landendocumentaties'.
As for you Dutchman, named 'Sepa Buys': 'Why do you give such a reaction are you reffering to the Dutch 'Verenigde Rubliek der Nederlanden' in de 'hightimes' of colonial suppresion ?
What I want to make clear is that INDOnesia, as a name, is also a
part of the Dutch colonial heritage.
People of 'NUSANtara' can do better than 'Indonesia' !!!!
It is up to us to decide this not some foreigner !!!! Period !!!!

Greets,
AnisJ ---> silahkananisRemoved to prevent your adress from being spammed. Click this to go to the user profile.yahoo.co.uk


'Ahu kura ahia, mansia nia'

AnisJ
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Extra to Joris,

The national bureau for the press is also named: 'Antara'.

Greets,

Anis.


'Ahu kura ahia, mansia nia'

diederick
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Dear Anis,

The hightimes of colonial surpression as you call it, were NOT in the times of the -to be completely correct - " De Republiek der (Zeven) Verenigde Nederlanden", but after that (let's say since the English came to Java in the person of the so revered Raffles). In fact the "Republiek" had officialy nothing to to with Indonesia, because this hunting ground was exclusively granted to a commercial company, the "lofflijke Geoctroyeerde Verenigde Oost-Indische Compagnie". This company had under its charter all the rights that souvereign countries have (to declare ware, to make treaties, to have an army etc.).
Logan was not an anthropologist but an etnologist (in this field of science quite a difference). A Dutch link about the name Indonesia http://www.nrc.nl/W2/Lab/Profi(...)donesie/feiten.html.
Finally I don't think that the french word "entre" is derived from antara. Maybe the other way round!



AnisJ
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Why Diederick , is a Dutchman "gründlich" like a German; is it because they are all Europeans ??
I do not want to urgue with you, probably you are right ?
I do not care, what interest me only is the big line: "INDOnesia" is a countryname of the Dutch colonial heritage !!!!
It is time people know its true meaning reality has nothing to do with romantisation and idealization, especially by westerners.
Do you know what 'ethnocentrism' mean: 'Which culture is older the French European culture or the Indian Hindustan culture ???'
For instance Europeans are more influenced by Arabians than they want to know sugar ---> sucre ---> sucker is from the Arab word: 'soghar' meaning "cane"; if it was not for them Europeans
do not know "AL" chemie, and so on .....
Civilization is not a magic word invented by Europeans ......

Greets...

Anis.



'Ahu kura ahia, mansia nia'

sidik
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Anis,

What is the official name of the country you are refering to? Republik Indonesia. So, unless the government of that country changes the name into Republik Nusantara, we will use Republik Indonesia.

Not only the name is a Dutch colonial heritage, but the country itself is a Dutch colonial heritage. The Dutch colonized that region from Sabang to Merauke and when they left, Soekarno cs FORCED that region to be kept united. Don't forget, that before the Dutch or other western country arrived there, the region was split into independent kingdoms. So it is no surprise, that until these days there are separatists active there. They don't want to be colonized by the Javanese!


tunawisma, tunakarya, tunamasalah

diederick
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Dear Anis,

I read your reply only now. You don't care about the facts? Okay, but why start then this discussion. To be political correct; the Dutch colonial government never used the term Indonesia, they even loathed it. The first to use this term in a political context were the Indonesians themselves, as they proclaimed the independent republic of Indonesia. Maybe it is a good idea to rename the country officially (like Birma for instance) in Nusa Tengara or Nusantara. But I am afraid that there will be not much support from the Indonesians themselves. What do you want me to do? To refer to Indonesia as Nusantara in the future?
I am completely aware of the criss-cross influences in culture between the west and the east, and that a lot of words in European languages derive from arabian, sanskrit, malay , chinese, you name it. And I grant you that a lot of people in Europe don't know that, sadly enough. And you know why? Because they "don't care".



AnisJ
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Dear Diederick,

My reaction towards you was also 'colored' by the reaction of Sepp Buys, this sort of reactions annoys me, for I find this a very typical cynical Dutch one.
I also do not understand why you speak for him as if he do not know how to defend himself, on paper !!!
Have you noticed "Sepa Buys" ????
As far as a reaction for your reply I would say 'How would you react, as a Dutchman yourself, if the Americans after liberating the Netherlands, would say that it belongs to Germany because the language sounds familiar ???'
Especially nowaday it would not make difference because Europe is getting united, would it ???

Greets ....
Anis.


'Ahu kura ahia, mansia nia'

diederick
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Dear Anis,

I am a bit tulalit. I did not answer for Sepp, he is quite capable to do that himself.
The part of the Americans that would then unite us with Germany because of similar languages confuses me. What is the connection with Indonesia?



AnisJ
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D. Diederick,

What I mean is a comparisation of language in the manner: "What is important for Europeans is also for other nations/people(s) and so on ....
Not instead of .....

Greets ....
Anis.


'Ahu kura ahia, mansia nia'

AnisJ
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Dear Sidik,

I guess you are right, but I take as a general freedom to mention this topic, at least to let people think about the 'countrys name'.
I therefore thank you for your reaction !!!
But "INDOnesia" majulah-----> kemana: muka/ belakang/kiri/kannan ??

Greets ....
Anis.


'Ahu kura ahia, mansia nia'

AnisJ
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Extra to Sidik,

"Do you think that peoples inside INDOnesia have ask the Dutch to become their colony for 250 years ???"

Gr. ....
Anis


'Ahu kura ahia, mansia nia'

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Anis,
do you think people inside indonesia have asked the javanese to rule the entire archipelago...in other words for the javanese to take the place of the dutch?
or is this just too simple a view on the matter Sidik brought up reguarding the separatists and the indonesian government hanging on to the dutch legacy of a united republic of indonesia.....before the Dutch colonized the country which is now known as R.I. it consisted of different kingdoms.....and different languages were (are still) spoken....the commonly used language Bahasa Indonesia is a fairly 'new' language.....fabricated in order for all the inhabitants of the archipelago to be able to communicate with eachother using the same language.


back to topic though, always thought the name Indonesia was derived from 2 words: indah (indonesian word) = beautiful
and nesos = island(s) which by the way is a greek word i think, not a latin one, but guess that's a minor detail and correct me if i'm wrong.



sidik
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Anis,
Jangan ngawur!


tunawisma, tunakarya, tunamasalah

diederick
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It is strange how perception can prevail over facts. I can only repeat myself. Indonesia was never a colony of the Dutch for over 250 years.
Java was a colony since 1825. The rest of Indonesia since 1880 until 1900. If you have other information I would like to share that with you. Sidik is completely right the unitary republic of Indonesia exists because of the Dutch legacy. Would the Dutch or any other "colonial power" never entered the archipelago, who knows what would have happened. By the way what about the Phillipines, also an archipelagic state per excellence, is there also a discussion like this?



AnisJ
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Some thing in general, you all react on details not on the essence !!!
The argument still hold despite of the details !!!

Greets to all,

ANIS.
Emoticon: Bye bye


'Ahu kura ahia, mansia nia'

AnisJ
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Emoticon: Bye bye THIS ARTICLE IS REEDITED WITH CONTRIBUTIONS OF SOME PERSONS.

Hello 'INDOnesia' name user,

'Are you such a person, that never have second thought(s) in using"
'INDOnesia' for that country along the equator ??'
By using 'INDOnesia' you must be aware that this country name is derived from the Greek language (quote: Bunga Belanda), a not original language of this region.
In 1511 Portuguese conquered the city of Malacca on the Malay peninsula, that was already a part of a region called 'NUSAnTARA'; this region was established by trade relations .
The name "INDOnesia" was fabricated by an English ethnologist (Diederick reedited Emoticon: Blush ) named: Logan. It was made out of "INDOS NESOS" meaning: Indian Islands.
"As an ojection one can say that the various cultures of this archipelogios country are different than the Indian mainland !!!"


'Ahu kura ahia, mansia nia'

AnisJ
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EXTRA FOR THE PREVIOUS ....

Although its contradictious meaning, INDOnesia as a name for this country was very much promoted too in the times of fighting for independency .
Probably due to the idea that the former Dutch colony, has an obsession to embrace every occasion to stimulate anything that the
Dutch colonial government "loathed".
I want to make extra clear that the NUSAnTARA region was based on
trade relations not militairy extension .
I hope that you INDOnsia name users will have a more perspective view when using it for that country along the equator, consisting of many archipelagos !!!
Some info about this article is obtainable from:
http://www.thejakartapost.com/history/history.asp

Readers of this article are invited to propose websites that treat this subject of INDOnesia as a country name .
In the Dutch city of Delft there is a small museum situated called:
NUSAnTARA.
The national press agency is called: Antara .
People who are interested in the origins of 'strange' words in INDOnesian; to them I am able to tell that there is an European research projekt of several European universities like the English "School of Oriental and African Studies" in London (G.-B.).
A Dutch university of Leiden, I gather is also involved, like a French and/or an Italian one too.
The lists had been published in their periodical "INDOnesia Circle".
Till here I end my article ....

Sampai ketemu lagi orang/2 membaca - untill we meet again on paper, you readers....
I surely invite you to comment on this article !!!

Greets and bye .....
Anis
Emoticon: Bye bye



'Ahu kura ahia, mansia nia'

AnisJ
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I was forgotten somethings ...
According 'inventory lists' INDOnesian is influenced by languages like: Dutch, Arabian, Sanskrit, Persian and Chinese among others, still to discover ??

Bye ... Anis.


'Ahu kura ahia, mansia nia'

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ok Anis, so what is it you want to make clear? that the origin of the name Indonesia is not native to the people who live in the archipelago you prefer to call Nusantara? and so what is you want to achieve by making this clear?
and so who do u want to make this message clear to? the western people? the people living in the area you prefer to call Nusantara? Maybe your explanation should also be addressed to what we westerners would call indonesian people....and maybe you should make them aware that the name they are using for their country is not really a proper name in your view.....and then if they agree with you they can start changing that name into Nusantara.....and then the rest of the world will follow their lead....
guess kind of like China's capitol city.........we used to call it Peking, but now its called Bejing, because it seems that that's closer to how the Chinese people pronounce that name...
as for words derived from different languages into a native language...i think thats only natural....every language changes...a language is supposed to be dynamic, not static...under the influence of many circumstances and situations languages adopt words from socalled foreign languages.....by means of interaction of different cultures....the dutch language has adopted many english words/ french words and also indonesian/malay words....like 'piekeren' is derived from ' pikir'........'pakkie-an' is derived from ' bagian' ......and ofcourse nowadays in the Netherlands 'nasi (goreng)' is almost considered a Dutch national dish....just like 'sate'.....but maybe thats getting a bit too off-topic now.
But i'm still trying to figure out what you are trying to make clear generally speaking as you think 'we' (the other forum members?) are getting too wrapped up in minor details...what is the general picture you are trying to paint here?

oh and by the way....did you know that the indonesian word ' sepeda ' is derived from the french word ' velocipede'....so french influence as well i guess! (lemari from the french '" l'armoire" Emoticon: Wink

greetings
Emoticon: Bye bye




sidik
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Anis,
Thanks to you the word Nusantara surfaces again. But do you know that that name was used at school when we refer to the archipelago (for your information, I went to school in Jakarta from SD to SMA) as a geographical phenomena.

But I can not help thinking also that the united archipelago you refer to is an invention of the Dutch. So maybe we should discuss also if it is justified that parts of that archipelago want their independency.


tunawisma, tunakarya, tunamasalah

AnisJ
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Answer(s) to Cindy (Bunga Belanda [?]) and Diederick ,

I do not agree that he Malay originated INDOnesian was a fairly "new
language"
; it was derived from the taditional language from the Riau archipelago, it was spread out over the region through trade relations .
In the Dutch colonial period this language was stimulated because it was very convenient for the Dutch colonial government as a lingua
franca
besides it was the most scattered language.
Besides, it makes more easy to manage this region with one language than several langanguages, the Dutch had even tried to import the Dutch oe into the language instead of the u .

As for Diederick ,
I think you must do your homework more accurate because the Java War
was from 1825-1830 with its inspiring leader of Diponegoro and the famous commander in chief Sentot .
Diederick there must be a dicussion like this in any country let alone
INDOnesia: because homogeniety is a myth in any country .
"When it comes to matters ...."
You as a Dutchman know there is a difference in feelings of nationality , among Dutch people from the Frysians to the conquered provinces, from the Belgians, like Noord-Brabant and Limburg.
"Thats why you talk about 'boven de rivieren' and 'beneden de rivieren'
???!!!"
That is why you have 'gouverneurs' and 'comissarissen van de koningin' !!!
What about Fyrians "stiff headed" people !!!
Cindy I also want to add something: "Do you know that Javanese are also not that homogeneous as people think".
There is a difference among West-Java/Central and East-Java, let alone Jakarta !!!
Like you can not take Amsterdam as an example for the Netherlands !!!

Greets to all, ANIS.


'Ahu kura ahia, mansia nia'

diederick
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Dear Anis,

You come back with a vengeance! Bravo!
Look, nobody proclaims that a colony starts from a certain day. I picked the year 1825 because then the Java-war (not the first by the way) starts. If you want to put the colonial period at the end, also good.
I am all for indepence, for any people who want it. If the Frisians want to go their own way, they go with my blessing. A problem less, and for them a problem more. That goes also for all the other independence movements in the wordl (Basque, Atjeh, Corsica etc.) You as a Geldersman should also know that this province consist of 3 very different parts, formerly four (Overkwartier) but still a unity for over 600 years. I think that not any inhabitant in Gelderland is bothered with sleeplessness about the current or future administrative handling of this territory.
And then this trade-relations. Look, if you make trade-relations a argument for the existence or non-existence of regional entities, then you start a never-ending stories. China had trade-relations with the Indonesian archipelago, so did Japan, for centuries. We don't consider them a unity, do we. The Netherlands had trade relations with England, for over centuries. Still two different countries, with different languages and cultures. Or do you mean the opposite, that the fact that there are trade-relations doesn't mean that there is a nation. Do you want to imply that a archipelagic state cannot exist, because "au fond" islands are not connected to eachother, have very different cultures and often languages. See the Dutch Antilles?





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