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diederick
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That could be true for the period 1945-1949 (although I have my doubts concerning his transfer to New Guinea, or was he arrested in Indonesia and abducted to New Guinea). If he went voluntarely to New Guinea around 1949 he had to apply for Dutch citizenship at one of the commissariats in Indonesia at that time (locations: jakarta, bandung, makassar, surabaya, medan and banjermassin). Luckilly the archives of these commissions are well preserved, as is the archives of Dutch New Guinea. So if you find his aliasses he will pop up without a doubt.
Still, your story about your grandfather being member of a Japanese delegation proved untrue. Or did he use a japanese alias?



budowono1
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Perhaps he just used it as an excuse for his action at the plantation.
but my grand mother is not a lier.

my grandfather was ot a coldbloaded urdrer like many people calmed him to be my grandmother didn't dream all the pain .
she cryed everyday for the loss of her son's and the loss of her husbend my grandmother didn't make up the pain she have supherd
my grandfather was arested in Jayapura.
he left the island jawa in 1948 he lived in many places since the dutch returned september 1945 he had to flee and leave his plantation behind . many workers got arested but my grsandfather was the only one that got hung for the crime because he led them to the mutiny .

but he killed many people not only jansen but every one that worked for the colony my grandmother had a foto that belongt to my grandfather he was on it with Jansen the Onderneming.
they where all dutch and a few indo's they where all crosed on the pic bucause they are all death murderd. my grandfather became the boss because he eliminated the Onderneming.
and it's members only he and the workers where left at the end



diederick
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Dear Budowono,

In my profession i am used to encounter people with familystories, which, when scrutinized, are sometimes completely different than the myth or the legend. I don't say that this is the case with your history, but emotions, whishful thinking, and hindsight often colour the picture quite differently then the reality.
You often contradict yourself. You said that your grandfather murdered Jansen (and his family with children) because he was fired by the fact that this Jansen killed his son. Now you say he killed a lot more people on the plantation. That was not out of a rage, that was with a purpose. We call that premeditated murder, whatever you say.
If the plantation was in Sumatra I don't understand why he had to leave it already in september 1945. There were no dutch to be seen until the end of that year. If the plantation was in java it was only at the first Politional action in 1948 that the Dutch ventured out of Surabaya.
The big question is off course how your grandfather ended up in Jayapura, considering the fact that he had to book transport and went to a completely Dutch controlled aerea. Logically he would flee to aereas controlled by the Republic.
And then this deathsentence. Without further notice of my collegues I would say that deathsentences where not issued nor executed in the Dutch New Guinea in 1952



budowono1
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i understand that but my grandmother sayd that the last time she saw him he left to jayapura.
he ;eft the p;antation in september 45 when he saw the Japanese soldiers evauwating he left because he knew it would just be a mater of time till the colony returns to punish him for his action
so he left back to Jakarta to his birth place Serpong bumi Indah but when my father was born in 1947 he left jakarta again wanting to provide my his youngest and most precious child a better future than his other children who where spread threw out Indonesia fighting for the revolution he knew that he couln't contact his others sons and that they probably where not a life any more wich saddend him great he came to Irian on a tongkang the same way his grandfather came to Indonesia from Canton in 1814. he went there actiong like a refugee him speeking fluid dutch.i don't know what happend next or who killed him my grsndmother sayd that my grandfathers litle brother Jozef told her that he was caught and hung by jansens family who reconised him andprobalbly murdred him.
the last time my grand mother saw him was when he gave my father to her and sayd to her go back home to Serpong and take care of my son don't let him follow me or his brothers 3 years later she was informed that he died a pore and beaten man.
all his life he wanted staus and power and always sayd i am ningrat and will die in style like ningrat but intead he died having nothing in 1949 was the last time he wrote my grandmother a letter saying not to worry and that he will come home after the war.
3 years later she got a letter that he was death
i know that he did a terible crime wich is unecceptable but he payd a terible price to he lost every thing including 9 children he beleeved in carma and sayd that this was his price to pay for his actions



diederick
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Dear Budowono,
Still we don't know where the plantation was, but at the moment that is not that important. So he returned to Serpong, stayed there three years and from there went on a "tongkong" (i guess a boat) in 1948 to Jayapura. There he styled himself as a refugee there. That last thing is strange, because in 1948 there was still no sight of a handover of sovereignity to the Republik. But o.k.. When arriving in Jayapura (as said there are a lot of archives, so it will be not that difficult to find) he had to hand in identitypapers or at least make himself known to the authorities there . Do you know which name he used or which aliasses he used. There were not that many people arriving in Jayapura (Hollandia) in that period, so he would stand out in any way.
Secondly, you change a bit your tune in the death of your grandfather. Now you say family members of Jansen who were in Jayapura (which familymembers? I thought he killed all the people on the plantation)recognised him and murdered him. First you told that he was sentenced to death by a Dutch court.
Finally, so he wrote a letter to you grandmother in 1949 (in custody, at least from Jayapura i guess). Then 3 years later (in 1952) your grandmother got a letter informing her your grandfather was dead. Who send that letter?



budowono1
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yes a Tongkang is a Boat.

my grandmother was confirmed by my grandfather's Halve-brother who lived at Irian for for over 20 years that is the reason i gues that he moved to irian. in the leter he wrote to my grandmother he say that he was arested after he was reconiced by jansens brother who did not work for the plantation he lived in Semarang before the war he only met him a few times at the plantation at jansen his brithday and at chrismas. but he knew what my grandfather did to his brother and his family for my grandfather didn't kill his entire family just jansen and his wife and children and a few other Onderneming members.
when he was in irian he used the name hesselink i beleef because he beleefed that they wouldn't harm him if he was to have a dutch identity .



klarina
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wat is dit voor een rare topic. iedere keer staat ie weer bovenaan in het rijtje active topics, en nooit staat er iets bij geschreven.
nu wel???



diederick
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On 22-12-2004 21:26 klarina wrote:
wat is dit voor een rare topic. iedere keer staat ie weer bovenaan in het rijtje active topics, en nooit staat er iets bij geschreven.
nu wel???

Beste Klarina, dit is helemaal geen rare topic. Het is een van de actiefste van het forum, daar zorgen Budowono en ondergetekende wel voor. Als je geen interesse hebt in het wel en wee van de roemrijke familie Lim, en dat kan ik goed begrijpen, laat het dan maar aan je voorbij gaan. Ah, ik snap jouw probleem al. Als een topic langer wordt dan krijgt het meer bladzijden (linksboven bij de topic zie je dan een 1 of zelfs een 2 of meer verschijnen) als je daar op klikt zie je het vervolg van de discussie.



diederick
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Dear Budowono,

Obvious your grandfather could not pass as a Hesselink (a good familyname from the east of the Netherlands). And certainly not with any identitypapers. In the passport- and nationalityadministration of New Guinea several Lim's or Liem's showed up (also Shui Sheng's by the way). I will ask my collegues to research for that Hesselink name. If this brother of Jansen as you say, who lived in Semarang visited the plantation sometimes it seems trustworthy to say that this plantation was in East-Java not in Sumatra.
You say that in this letter of his half-brother his arrest was mentioned. Did he also mentioned in this letter the execution of your grandfather?



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What a discussion...you guys got nothin to do ? Emoticon: Smile


eenheid in verscheidenheid

diederick
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On 26-12-2004 16:17 fajarsantoso wrote:

What a discussion...you guys got nothin to do ? Emoticon: Smile

Dear Fajar Santoso,

This is not a discussion. This is history at the making. If you are not interested, respect. Still, you seem to read this topic. Let Budowono and me just continue for our own sake. And indeed, allthough I speak for myself, we have nothing else to do. By the way, what is your favourite topic of discussion then?



Jeanette
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Dear Diederick,
I admire your calm and civility. I for one could never be like this with this topic.
And I'm so glad that the majority of the Indonesian people are a bit different than mister Budowono.




diederick
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Dear Jeanette,

Fortunatly indeed the majority of Indonesian people are not like Budowono. Still, here is someone with a deep grudge based - as far as I can see- on a series of myths and familystories which logically seen have no real foundation in facts. As said before that is not new to me. I hope anyway by taking away some of the shrouds and veils, and by asking questions and do some research that a clearer picture will emerge, for his sake. Amen.




budowono1
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On 23-12-2004 17:10 diederick wrote:
Dear Budowono,

Obvious your grandfather could not pass as a Hesselink (a good familyname from the east of the Netherlands). And certainly not with any identitypapers. In the passport- and nationalityadministration of New Guinea several Lims or Liems showed up (also Shui Shengs by the way). I will ask my collegues to research for that Hesselink name. If this brother of Jansen as you say, who lived in Semarang visited the plantation sometimes it seems trustworthy to say that this plantation was in East-Java not in Sumatra.
You say that in this letter of his half-brother his arrest was mentioned. Did he also mentioned in this letter the execution of your grandfather?
he wrote to my grandmother that my grandfather was arested and the next time he checked on him he was death they sayd he was hung.
it would be certain that he did not hang him self.
my grandmother went to Irian in 1963 where he was burried in a unarked grave she had him dug up and burried in Serpong at the Lim family grave he may have died a other name but was burried as lim that was what he would have wanted.





diederick
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Dear Budowono,

It took some time, taking in account all the holidays. But I got now message from the Netherlands that after extensive search in all available archives there is no mention to be found of Yohannes Lim nor under his aliasses Budowono or Hesselink, entering New Guinea, nor any arrest, let alone deathsentence, or execution or hanging of any person in Hollandia/Jayapura in 1952. I am sorry, but considering the present evidence, it is now your turn to come up with some solid proof



Sepp Buys
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I love history and gyneacology. Diederick can you find out something about my family as well. Did they ever go to the Indies, with some kind of vessel, from Hoorn to the Kaap and sailing to The East Indies? Would be very interesting, because my father believes he has been here, whether it is reincarnated, he is catholic, or by knowing a little bit more than we do about my ancestors, could you?

Sepp



Sepp Buys
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And isn't it true that a motherland is where you are originally from, which means your ancestors, and your fatherland, if not an original inhabitant, the country of residence.

Which in the case of Bono, is motherland China and fatherland Indonesia?????

Sepp



diederick
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On 08-01-2005 08:57 Sepp Buys wrote:
I love history and gyneacology. Diederick can you find out something about my family as well.
Sepp

Dear Sepp, in the history department I have some knowledge, unfortunately not in gyneacology. Seems to me a nice hobby! Or do you mean genealogy?
There are so many Buyses or Buijses who went to the Indies. Take you pick.
According to a database of VOC-personal going to the Indies in the period 1700-1794 (www.mindbus.nl) at least 215 persons (the database contains at the moment only 25% of the total number personal).
Other databases give:
Gerrit Gerritsz van der Buys (around 1608 governor at Ternate)
Maria Cecilia Buys (wife of governor-general Jaques Specx)
Michiel Cornelisz van der Buys (commander at Bantam around 1674)
Pieter Cornelisz Buys (shipper also around 16745)
Pieter Buijs (uppermerchant and goveror at Ternate around 1691)
Jacob Buys (uppersurgeon at Timor around 1740)
[source: http://obp.tanap.net/index.cfm]



Sepp Buys
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Maak me gek!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Dank Diederick

Sepp



budowono1
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Check out my causin Joseph his Site
i helpd him create it for our Oposition GMNA
www.Gmna.Bravehost.com



diederick
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On 10-01-2005 19:19 budowono1 wrote:
Check out my causin Joseph his Site
i helpd him create it for our Oposition GMNA
www.Gmna.Bravehost.com


Dear Budowono, is that your proof? How many more personalities do you have (you are equalling the famous Portuguese poet Fernando Pessoa)? This Joseph Tan is you again! I saw even your famous song "tension" and a reference to Shuisheng.



budowono1
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no actualy me shuisheng and Joseph dit it together
on the group foto you see me Joseph and shuisheng
go to view foto album and than to my family .
thers a pic of me shuisheng and Jospeh we are the founders of Gerakan mudamudi nasional asia. Joseph made the page cause he's the oldes of us 3 we are like brothers always together
yeah we put on the Song our story from tension cause i like chinese music.

we are a team Nunu.Shuisheng & Joseph.
ever since we where kids we do every thing together we do same school same clothes same style only Joseph a bit more stylefull he's like the leader of us.
when you always on the street in Jakarta you must have attitude and power to serfive....!we are we have so we stick together ...!




bangwin
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mas Nunu.....i didn't see wangyuanlincn in your GMNA page? Emoticon: Puh!



budowono1
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siapa wang yuan linch ???
i dont kno him



Xandria
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Emoticon: Frustrated




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