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diederick
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That is information I can work with.
First to put things righ, Your uncle Ado (who died 1944 in Mojokerto) en your uncle Johnny (died 1943 in Makassar) seem to be not killed by Dutch military. For that it is too early, there was no fighting between allies and Japanese there in those years, or were they killed by an airraid (then maybe Australian or American)?
the death of Your uncle Johan in 1942 wonders me. Was that before the Japanese invasion, like the killing of your uncle Leo by this "mister Jansen". Where was that (and were was this tobaccoplantation of your grandfather. Is that connected with that mister Jansen)?
Your uncle Harto who died on a Japanese troopship (do you know the name) could well be killed with other slave-labourers and Dutch pow while being transported from Birma or Sumatra. For that I have to know the name of the ship, or a more precise date.
Your uncles Erwin and Tommy died in a dutch camp in 1948. What was this for a camp and were was it located?
For your uncles Eddy, who died 1947 was that between 21 july 1947 an 5 august 1947(period of the socalled 1st Politional action, operation Produkt). Surabaya was already occupied by Dutch forces (marines)long before that operation. Maybe he died in some guerilla-action.
Finally your uncle yohannes who died in Jakarta. Was that after 18 december 1948 (beginnen of the 2nd politional action)?
Besides the archive of the Hooggerechtshof, the National Archives in the Netherlands hold also the archive of the NEFIS (a part is still with the ministry of Foreign Affairs). this archive holds, amongst others an extensive card-system on all socalled rebels or revolutianaries. Maybe one of your uncles is mentioned there.



JohanN
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Begin de details te vergeten

budowono1
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On 07-12-2004 15:49 diederick wrote:
That is information I can work with.
First to put things righ, Your uncle Ado (who died 1944 in Mojokerto) en your uncle Johnny (died 1943 in Makasar) seem to be not killed by Dutch military. For that it is too early, there was no fighting between allies and Japanese there in those years, or were they killed by an airraid (then maybe Australian or American)?
the death of Your uncle Johan in 1942 wonders me. Was that before the Japanese invasion, like the killing of your uncle Leo by this "mister Jansen". Where was that (and were was this tobaccoplantation of your grandfather. Is that connected with that mister Jansen)?
Your uncle Harto who died on a Japanese troopship (do you know the name) could well be killed with other slave-labourers and Dutch pow while being transported from Birma or Sumatra. For that I have to know the name of the ship, or a more precise date.
Your uncles Erwin and Tommy died in a dutch camp in 1948. What was this for a camp and were was it located?
For your uncles Eddy, who died 1947 was that between 21 july 1947 an 5 august 1947(period of the socalled 1st Politional action, operation Produkt). Surabaya was already occupied by Dutch forces (marines)long before that operation. Maybe he died in some guerilla-action.
Finally your uncle yohannes who died in Jakarta. Was that after 18 december 1948 (beginnen of the 2nd politional action)?
Besides the archive of the Hooggerechtshof, the National Archives in the Netherlands hold also the archive of the NEFIS (a part is still with the ministry of Foreign Affairs). this archive holds, amongst others an extensive card-system on all socalled rebels or revolutianaries. Maybe one of your uncles is mentioned there.


yes Mester jansen was from the tabaco plantation .
that is why my grandfather turned the workers agayst him and killed mester jansen and his entire family.
the workers luted the house and took what was wrightfully theres.
my grandfather was the chairman and became owner and lead the workers.don't know the name of the ship my uncle harto died on he was not a slave laybourer. he was part of the group that rounded up people he was to be transported to makasar but the ship was torpedoed and sunk woth japanese soldiers. romusha troups and prisoners. i don't know the exact detail i only know how he died my father knew the details he had the documents with the time and places they died i can look it up but they are at my house in Jakarta.
I know only the stories and the emotion e seen on my grandmoothers face when ever she told me aboud the loss of her sons she died a month after my father died from a broken heart cause of the great los of so many children and husband



diederick
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Considering the traumatic events I guess you know and can give me the name and location of this plantation. Your use of the name "mester" in stead of "mister" makes me wonder. Could it be that this Jansen was a schoolteacher? New information is that not only Jansen was killed by your grandfather but also his family (wife and children? How old where the children of mr. Jansen?). That was in 1942 and then your grandfather I take it was arrested and trialed for his acts after 1945 when the Dutch returned. Again, what was the name or location of this plantation? That is very important. By the way what do you mean by chairman, and what function did mr. jansen had?
In 1945 no people had to be rounded up anymore, at least not Dutch or Indo-europeans because they were already in concentration camps. This ship to Makassar had to be before 14 August 1945. Because East-Indonesia was under allied control very fast.
I wait for your return to Indonesia to give me the other details. Did you already went to the archive to put all this stories and emotion into a context?




budowono1
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no i didn't go to the archive yet but i will go soon after 3 january than it will be the 10th birthday of my fathers death so in still in morning now.

I use the word mester cause at the plantation they called him Meester-Jansen for the was director of the plantation. yes my grand father was the chairman of the plantation.Jansen's children where still verry young at the time i beleef his oldes child was 7 but my grandfather was to angry cause of the los of a son by this man.
i heard that Jansen also once kiiled a local boy forstealing fruit to eat
so that was also a reason why the workers turned agaynst him.
I don't know what happend with the plantation after the war i beleef it was burned down afeter the dutch returned from detention camps.
my grand father and many of the workers got arested by my grandfather got death penalty because he led the men to the coup agaynst jansen i can give the exact detail when i am back in Indonesia but im writing a biography on my grandfather now .
so that his name may not be forgothen i truely beleef that he was a brave man he was not the cold hartles monster as he was claimed to be by the nederlandse gerechtshof he was a hero he always sayd that for freedom one would have to pay a large price so that your loved once can be save and sometimes you'd have to do terible act to achieve it.

but i will drop by the dutch national archive in the hague
to see if i can find some information aboud my grandfather and the murder of patriotism he pledged at that dretfull night




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Budowono,
where was the plantation located? I've been following this discussion and I'm sure Budo, the location is important to get some light into this matter. Lucky you have an excellent archivist like Diederick to help you out. Good luck then.


Slightly older, hopefully wiser, absolutely prettier

deapy
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hey hey guys what is going on down here? well i am new here and dont know what kind of site this is...i just read budowono1's topic and it seems like the third world war down here...what's going on? JUST BE YOURSELF GUYS! Look into the mirror....we're the same.......nobody's perfect....nobody's rich!!!!!!! you is you and me is me.....they are just words .......Peace GuySss

Anyways Rest In Peace Prince Bernhard =(

Love,
Deapy



=====*****INDO DEAPY*****=====

diederick
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Dear Deapy,

I can understand that you are concerned. But rest assure, Budowono and undersigned understand eachother completely and are working things out. I don't know about Budowono, but I am quite myself.
Nice that you have a good comment on the late prince Bernhard. I am quite sure he will always rest in peace

Diederick



budowono1
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On 09-12-2004 15:05 deapy wrote:
hey hey guys what is going on down here? well i am new here and dont know what kind of site this is...i just read budowono1s topic and it seems like the third world war down here...whats going on? JUST BE YOURSELF GUYS! Look into the mirror....were the same.......nobodys perfect....nobodys rich!!!!!!! you is you and me is me.....they are just words .......Peace GuySss

Anyways Rest In Peace Prince Bernhard =(

Love,
Deapy


thats wright .
Nothing to worry aboud we not arguing just debating aboud a subject.
well your right though.

and maybe it's better for prince bernhard he's been threw alot .
maybe he can finaly find peace .



diederick
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To go on Budowono,

At least the location of the plantation or the name?




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Budowono, where is the location of the plantation.
I am curious because I was born and raised in a plantation.



budowono1
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The plantation was in Sumut Deli tabaco lah.....!
not Helvetia but it was between Langkat and medan .
but my opah also worked at plantation at East Jawa so i not really sure if in that time where cause both plantation same oner only difrent
propinsi



budowono1
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check out my link Gallery




diederick
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Dear Budowon,
considering your love and admiration for Japan, you should use the right names. You spoke about the delegasi Yoshida, you meant the delegasi Kenkitshi Yoshizawa who visited the Dutch Indies in december 1940 until juni 1941. If you grandfather was part of this delegasi (and it seems so considering the photo on your website), what was he doing then in 1942 at a plantation in Sumatra?



diederick
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And what is this first Indonesian coalition government?
considering the two photo's it is or one a bunch of japanes military, secondly one indonesian with a muslim hat ( is it Sukarno? standing for a Japanese general backed by a huge Japanese and another guy?



budowono1
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on the other picture is not a guy with a muslim hat.
It was Achmad Soekarno. A pici is consitered a part of national dress
and is formal cloting.
but yes it was soekarno at the the revolution started and where he saluteed the japanese flag and screemed out .(Banzai Dai Nippon)
and egknoledged Indonesia-nippon Coalition Goverment.
the japanese man standing there was the Governer.

My grandfather was working for the plantation at the time waiting for the opertunity to strike at the colony and was prepairing for many months with the workers of the plantation to take it over .
there turning agaynst the people of the Onderneming cost alot of anticipation and preperation my grandfather lived together with these belanda's for years upserving there ways and habits it was just a mater of time he wirked at the plantation because he wanted it since the day he finished univercity and started working for the onderneming.






budowono1
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Hope you like the song it :
Tension (Our Story)



diederick
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With all respect, Budowono, with every posting your grandfather character grows more unsymphatic. First he was a man fired by the killing of his son to kill the administrator mr Jansen and his family. Now it seems he was planning the whole operation for years (in criminal law that is premeditated murder, and no wonder he was sentenced to death for that, under the current law then. Be aware I am against deathsentences).
Still I have a lot o questions (btw I asked collegues to find a list of members of this Japanese delegation). The most important one is; how did your grandfather ended up in a Japanese delegation 1940/1941. Was he living at the moment in Japan? What was his function in this delegation. Did he stay behind after the delegation went back to Japan. And why was he not arrested immediatly by the Dutch government when he stayed behind in Indonesia or before the invasion of 1942?
Secondly. To my knowledge, but I am not an expert there never existed a Japanese-Indonesian coalition government. Japan instituted on 7 august 1945 a committee for the prepariation of the Independence, but because Japan capitulated on the 18th of august that came to nothing. Negotations between Sukarno and Hatta and others with the Japanes authorities then resulted in the following: The Japanese agreed that a declaration of indepence would be made, under the condition that they (the Japanese) were not officialy involved.



budowono1
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My Grandfather prepaired years for the revolution he never planed to kill him but by the murder of his son wich made him go crazy.
Everything was under Martial law.
there wasn't any rull's during the revolution.

his rage became great. he came first in contact with the Japanese in 1937 when he was still living in Jakarta he went to the japanese Embassy and held secret meeting's for over a year in 1938 he went to Tokyo and returned after and returned in 1940

I used the word Indonesia-japan Koalition because the Goverment was a coopertive goverment.
My grandfather there fore spoke fluid japanese.
The Empire of japan used many people like my grandfather because
the local people listend to the Indonesia people working for the japanese. And my grandfather beeing a high educated and richman he had much influance on the people the Kuli's followed blindly

it is true that the Empire of japan gave us there weapons at august 1945 because they prefered to serender the weapons to the comrad instead of serendering them to the allied terorists.




budowono1
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My father was born in july 1947 and my grandfather got arested in 1949 he got hung in 1952 for murder and socalled war-crimes he was a broken man the birth of my father was his only comford.
he was 67 when he died my father was 6 when he lost his father.

many people say that it was an act of greed and coruption but it was an act of patriotism. he loved his country and it hurted him tosee the Indonesia people supher under Duth rule that is why he started his work because he couldn't bare to see the indonesia people work and hunger and even die as the dutch got richer and stole all things precious in Indonesia that is the reason why he turned against the dutch because they where beeing unfair and unreasaneble.
He may have done some terible things during the revolution but the price of freedom is high. he always sayd Secravices must be maid and he was willing to give his own life. but never wanted to secravice his children but by the loss of favorite son by Jansen he changed he wan'st him self he was full of rage that is why he chose to have him brutaly killed to make a point to all the other colonists. for some a crime for others a heroic deed



diederick
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Budowono, you keep surprising me
Your grandfather was hanged in 1952! That means by the Republik Indonesia, not by the Dutch! Please explain.
For the rest. You yourself said that your grandfather was planning to take over the plantation for year, because he wanted it for himself. That are youre words. So not for the workers, not for the Indonesian republic, but just for himself. You say he was a rich man. Was that before or after he took possession of the plantation?
That he killed this Jansen for killing his son (if that is true) I can even understand, but killing the wife and children? That is not a sacrifice, that is just not right.
About these sacrifices and brutal killings for the good cause. The muslim-terrosists- so despiced by you- follow the same philosophy. Millions of people have died because somebody thaught it was all for a good cause. For me the simple answer is; a cause or ideal that involves killing of innocent people, can never be a good cause or ideal. And in the end it will alway backfire (see history)



budowono1
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maybe my grandfather killed them to make Jansen supher the same way he supherd when he lost his son.
my Grandfather loved his children but when his favorite was kiiled he went mad of rage against all dutch. my grandfather beleefed in justice And eye for a eye s what he wanted a son for a son.
my grandfather was born rich but lost every thing after the war.
he was arested by dutch in 1949 and tryled in Irian Jaya .
so it was by the dutch.
when they returned from prison they burned the plantation looking for my grandfather he hed to flee he changed his name to Budowono.
and tried to start a new life but they finaly found him and acused him treason murder and colaboration with the enamy.
my grandfather didn't get any defence he was brought to court for war crimes when he died he was a broken man.
he knowing that his children died because of the revolution.
My grandfathers action where not same as by the muslim's
he acted out of pasion and by emotion he did it for Indonesia and for the workers not jsut for him self`



diederick
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Dear Budowono,

My collegues are doing research at the moment. I am curious what they will find out.
You keep surprising me. Because it seems your grandfather left the republik of Indonesia just on the moment that it was really free (in 1949). Why was that, and why did he - a national hero- migrate to the last Dutch colonial ressort, namely Nieuw-Guinea? At that time only stout supporters of the Netherlands - who did not want to stay in Indonesia- migrated to New-Guinea.
I know that in the Netherlands a number of deathsentences issued by a special tribunal were executed after the war with Germany. I am unaware of any deathsentences issued by courts in Indonesia or even better Dutch New Guinea. There was only one major court in New-Guinea namely the Hof van Justitie. And a case like this would be in all newspapers at that time (deathsentences are quite rare in Dutch legal history of the 20th century you know, and hanging was not used for warcriminals in the Netherlands, so I wonder). Anyway, internetresearch doesn't give any information.



diederick
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Dear Budowono,

I have received the first results of research in the archives in the Netherlands. I have to open with a two sad messages. As it looks your grandfather was not a member of the delegasi Yoshizawa. I have the list of members. I will bore all other forum-members with it. But I would like you to see it:
Vertegenwoordiger: Kobayashi Ichizo , Bijzonder afgezant, Minister van Handel en Industrie.
Suite: Ota Tomotsune, Secretaris aan het Ministerie van Buitenlandse Zaken.
Iwase Kiichiro, als boven.
Minowa Saburo, Kanselier aan het Ministerie van Buitenlandse Zaken.
Hasegawa Saburo, als boven.
Oshima Soshiro, ingenieur aan het Ministerie van Buitenlandse Zaken.
Hasumi Sachio, vice-consul.
Ishimoto Goyu, kolonel.
Nakayama Yasundo, luitenant-kolonel bij de luchtvaart.
Nakahara Yoshimasa, kapitein-ter-zee.
Nakasuji Toichi, kapitein-luitenant-ter-zee bij de marine stoomvaartdienst.
(vooruit gezonden)
Kawamoto Kunio, Secretaris aan het Ministerie voor Overzeese Zaken.
Hatanaka Daisuke, Secretaris van het Bureau voor Brandstoffen.
Okuda Shinzo, Secretaris van het Ministerie voor Handel en Industrie.
Hasegawa Teruhiko, Secretaris van het Bureau voor Buitenlandse Handel.
Kojima Munetaka, Kanselier van het Ministerie van FinanciŽn.
Sugawara Yoshitada, onderzoekingsambtenaar van het Plannenbureau.

Toegevoegd aan de Vertegenwoordiger:
Yatayama Tamotsu, te werk gesteld aan het Ministerie van Buitenlandse Zaken.
Kaneko Koichi, leerling-kanselier van het Ministerie van Buitenlandse Zaken.
Ariyoshi Iwao, als boven (vooruit gezonden).
Satachi Isoo, leerling-tolk van het Ministerie van Overzeese Zaken.

Deze gegevens zijn afkomstig uit de RGP-delen: Documenten betreffende de buitenlandse politiek van Nederland 1919-1945 (Grote Serie, deel 157, 160, 172 en 188).
Secondly there is no mention of Yohannes Lim in the archive of the Hooggerechtshof van Nederlands-IndiŽ. Other research results will follow soon.







budowono1
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i see . maybe because my grandfather changed his name 4 times .
Yohanes lim was his birth name but he went threw the revolution with difrent names perhaps that is why he couldb't be found my fathers was given the name Budowono but my grandfathers name wasn't
i don't know the name he wore at the time i only know that his true name was Yohanes Sugeng Lim.
for my father was the youngest child of 12.






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